General

Re: Why I love Dubai

Inquisitor — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:10:20 GMT

Re: Why I love Dubai

rhys — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:09:34 GMT

Halevy:
Byzantine:
Actually, the ability to discriminate is the very essence of property rights. That's why the state outlaws discrimination.

I understand that you may prevent me from trespassing your private property, if you wish, but - is a *State* entitled to block its borders to people belonging to group "X" ?
Are you sure Dubai citizens agree to block the entrance of free individuals which could bring good business oppportunities and perform mutually beneficial exchange?
Please note that some concepts that fully apply to the interaction between individuals do not apply to the *State*, which b.t.w. is "our Enemy" for 99% of the readers and contributors of this Forum.

States have the right to discriminate, as long as they allow secession. I am not in favor of the State, but humans, in a state of anarchy, have the right to form alliances within their communities and to create a government - which you would call a State. States are not, de facto, illegitimate. Only when they don't allow secession or act without the consent of the governed are they null and void.

That is why States are so long lived. They never go in peace, because they always assume they represent the consent of the governed. Only violence or bankruptcy can bring down a State. After all, I can disagree with my fellow citizens, yet still desire the protection of the mutual governance. Only when enough of the citizenry is willing to risk their own lives, will the State be forced to recognize the polities malcontent.

It is a testament to the freedom of Dubai and its citizens that it is so prosperous. It is a testament to America's diminishing freedom, that our prosperity is shrinking.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Halevy — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:15:19 GMT

Byzantine:
Actually, the ability to discriminate is the very essence of property rights. That's why the state outlaws discrimination.

I understand that you may prevent me from trespassing your private property, if you wish, but - is a *State* entitled to block its borders to people belonging to group "X" ?

Whose property is Dubai?

Is it a private property or a State?

Does it belong to the the Royal Family or to People of Dubai?

Does the Royal Family of Dubai represent the will of the "free" Dubai inhabitants?

Are you sure Dubai citizens agree to block the entrance of free individuals which could bring good business oppportunities and perform mutually beneficial exchange?

Please note that some concepts that fully apply to the interaction between individuals do not apply to the *State*, which b.t.w. is "our Enemy" for 99% of the readers and contributors of this Forum.

Just for clarification, I'm not willing to "prove" I'm right or whatever, just trying to bring to the surface the essential inconsistence arising from a *State* intending to operate based on economic freedom and simultaneously applying severe restrictions to free speech, religious belief, political disagreement and many other issues already exposed.

Let's just keep Dubai as an interesting example for a free market approach and less government intervention in economic matters, but far from setting this country as a "new standard" for Freedom, which positively is not the case, for all reasons previously discussed by myself and other contributors to this thread.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Stranger — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:18:58 GMT

JimS:
While I do sincerely wish all the best for the entrepreneurs of Dubai, there is a major potential problem: the geopolitical proximity threat. If war breaks out in the Persian Gulf, no investor or tourist would fly to Dubai. It reminds me of Beirut before their civil war broke out in the 70's. Is there an American University in Dubai yet? Beirut had one, along with skysrapers that later were used as machinegun posts. When capital supply is tight and middleast is unstable, even Tel Aviv market drops like a rock despite that Israelis having the most powerful military in the region . . . In contrast, what are the chances that Dubai would be able to defend its wealth and those of its investors in a turmoil?

Dubai may well play the role Switzerland did in WWII: too expensive to invade and not worth the loss of a neutral ground. In that case it could profit immensely from the flood of skilled refugees. (It has already done so with Iraqi war refugees to a certain extent.)

There is an American University in Dubai.

Re: Why I love Dubai

JimS — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 06:52:34 GMT

While I do sincerely wish all the best for the entrepreneurs of Dubai, there is a major potential problem: the geopolitical proximity threat. If war breaks out in the Persian Gulf, no investor or tourist would fly to Dubai. It reminds me of Beirut before their civil war broke out in the 70's. Is there an American University in Dubai yet? Beirut had one, along with skysrapers that later were used as machinegun posts. When capital supply is tight and middleast is unstable, even Tel Aviv market drops like a rock despite that Israelis having the most powerful military in the region . . . In contrast, what are the chances that Dubai would be able to defend its wealth and those of its investors in a turmoil?

Re: Why I love Dubai

Solredime — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:25:24 GMT

SMacaskill:
So what we're really doing is waiting for a Libertarian, or group of Libertarians to purchase a large amount land, such as an island, and create a deregulated, free trade zone for others who wish to live there.

I wish it were this simply. Unfortunately, knowing how the US, the UN, NATO, EU, CFR, and others work, they'll probably put on an embargo of some sort, or simply won't recognize it as a country. This would make trade very hard, especially since organisations like the WTO seem to have a supra-national influence on these things. The status quo is big government, and they will do anything to stop an experiment on real libertarianism from succeeding. I'm sure they'll find a reason too, they've been making up lies about all sorts of threats (terrorism in iraq was non-existant, global warming as a human cause is more and more disputed) in the name of taking away our freedom for a "greater good".

I did hear though that some islands were being sold which would grant the owner sovereignty so that he could create an off-shore tax zone. Maybe if someone has a lot of money to spend and doesn't mind running a risk.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Stranger — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:21:10 GMT

Fred Furash:
This is absolutely insane from any Libertarian perspective. You cannot maintain double standards, and no matter how good the standards are for one group, without the same rights for all other groups, the country is about as free as Nazi Germany. By your reasoning, Nazi Germany, which granted fairly good rights to the majority and had a capitalist economy, could be seen as abeacon of freedom, yet you know this is absurd.

If Nazi Germany was surrounded by totalitarian communist regimes everywhere else in the world, then yes, I would have to say that, and it would be true.

Re: Why I love Dubai

SMacaskill — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:21:29 GMT

So what we're really doing is waiting for a Libertarian, or group of Libertarians to purchase a large amount land, such as an island, and create a deregulated, free trade zone for others who wish to live there.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Solredime — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:07:40 GMT

Stranger:
Where did I critique libertarian philosophy? All I've said was that Dubai was one of the best examples of freedom, especially in the middle east.

You did it just now! You call Dubai a great example of freedom, and then say that you're not critiquing Libertarian philosophy. That's like spitting in the face of Libertarianism! How can you say that any country is a beacon and example of freedom if they are against Jews, homosexuals, and people who drink alcohol or watch porn. Of course, it's not just those, it's other minorities too.

But even if it were just one minority, no matter how minuscule, the idea that they would have a double standard would obliterate any possibility of freedom. It doesn't matter how much they encourage one religion to participate in the economy, if at the same time they deny another religion's existance within the country!

This is absolutely insane from any Libertarian perspective. You cannot maintain double standards, and no matter how good the standards are for one group, without the same rights for all other groups, the country is about as free as Nazi Germany. By your reasoning, Nazi Germany, which granted fairly good rights to the majority and had a capitalist economy, could be seen as abeacon of freedom, yet you know this is absurd. If your reasoning can easily be stretched to this conclusion then there must be something wrong with your argument. Either you're arguing against Libertarianism, or you simply don't understand the guiding principles.

I'm saying this again, any country that maintains double standards and hypocrisy of ANY SORT, cannot classify as Libertarian or "free". No matter what the benefits to a majority, if even one person suffers at the expense of some sort of "Greater good" for the majority, then this is simple collectivism.

I think you need to review the basis of Individualism versus Collectivism and their guiding principles.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Stranger — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:42:05 GMT

Where did I critique libertarian philosophy? All I've said was that Dubai was one of the best examples of freedom, especially in the middle east.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Halevy — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:26:18 GMT

"The world is full of tolerant social-democracies where minorities and freaks are protected by the state. Try to make something of yourself and you'll be punished for it, on the other hand."

Yes, I fully agree with your thought, but this does not justify to discriminate any individual within a libertarian environment.

"Dubai may be a terrible place to be in if you are a homosexual jew who enjoys pornography, but for the majority of people, for whom the entire world is a terrible place to live in, it is a new hope. "

Even though I personally fit into only one of the categories above, namely I'm Jewish, libertarian thought simply does not admit any restriction to personal freedom - unless it threatens other individuals' freedom - and I find it 100% unacceptable to enforce segregation of any kind (even for those groups that think different from myself, for that matter) except if voluntarily agreed between the involved groups or parts.

No matter from which angle you turn this matter upside down: libertarianism just doesn't "fit" with restrictions to personal freedom. If you do think so, I respect your viewpoint, but please don't try to adjust the libertarian philosopy to your own specific beliefs.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Stranger — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:35:06 GMT

The world is full of tolerant social-democracies where minorities and freaks are protected by the state. Try to make something of yourself and you'll be punished for it, on the other hand.

In Dubai you can aspire to become something more than what you are. The government is officially praising enterprise in young people. Do you have any idea how rare this is in today's world? Dubai may be a terrible place to be in if you are a homosexual jew who enjoys pornography, but for the majority of people, for whom the entire world is a terrible place to live in, it is a new hope.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Solredime — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:45:57 GMT

Stranger:
None of which can stop the growth of Dubai into a world capital.

Yes, the growth of a new capital with few liberties.

You cannot view society from a perspective of just economic-growth. Personal freedoms are very important. The fact that a law exists against certain minorities is the epitome of anti-libertarianism, since everyone is equal before the law in a libertarian system.

At least half of what he said I can confirm to be true, because this country is greatly influenced by Sharia law, which is extremely prohibitive to personal freedom. Indeed there is none to those that do not adhere to the muslim faith, or happen to be of the wrong gender, or sexual orientation, or wear the wrong clothes...

Just because Dubai has recognized that capitalism has the greatest potential for growth, only goes to show their understanding of economics. The fact that political and civic freedoms are non-existant show that Dubai would be a terrible place to live in if you happen to be part of a minority.

Since Libertarianism is a system of society and government, you must be careful not to divorce the political aspects, or to minimize their importance when praising a growing economy, simply because they have low taxes and ambitious entrepreneurs.

Re: Why I love Dubai

Halevy — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:14:30 GMT

IMO, some reasons why humility and tolerance are essential for the construction of a libertarian society:

1. It requires indeed a great dosis of humility to recognize that "freedom" (which is one of the pillars of libertarianism, if I didn't miss the point) implies in accepting that one's personal views may not be necessarily superior to others' views - and thus discouraging every individual from trying to impose them on others through coercion, and

2. "Tolerance" within a libertarian society means - among other concepts - that each individual should accept that his heighbor may have a different faith, and exercise it freely, as long as the referred practice does not interfere in any way with his personal freedom and/ or property. That implies, as aconsequence, that temples for each and every faith could be built on a libertarian land - subject to the applicable contractual arrangements voluntarily held between the involved communities.

Once more, we see the theoretical conflict arising between thouse who advocate the "pure" libertarianism as a political/ economical system, not linked to any other disciplines or areas of thought, and others who would rather regard it as a philosophical basis to be merged with ethical (therefore subjective) principles which would help construct a smooth-operating human environment.

Conclusion: it's quite possible that Dubai will grow to be a world capital in regards to economic prosperity, however lacking a bit *humanity*, which ultimately is one of the main goals of those who embrace libertarian thinking.