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Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Daniel James Sanchez — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:18:44 GMT

Capital Pumper, it's not a "serious business attitude" to prefer not to have someone who insults and embarrasses you in front of others in your house.

As for "painting a target on his back for trolls", do you really think a number of people would say, "Hey, he told the guy who embarrassed him in front of his guests to leave; let's go hassle him."? If you do, then you must be in some rather loutish social circles.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Capital Pumper — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:17:21 GMT

Lilburne:

If you held a large party in your house, and I swaggered in and called you a douchebag in front of all your guests, it would be perfectly appropriate for you to have me escorted out. This is, in essence, no different.

For that reason alone it would be stupid. What would he have to gain from a serious business attitude? He would be demonstrating a lack of social intelligence; consequently, painting a target on his back for trolls who thrive off of people with said attitude.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Daniel James Sanchez — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:15:19 GMT

Josh:

I should also add that my criticism, which has racial and qualitatively subjective (douchey?) undertones, is important, at least in my mind. If the goal is to spread the cause, within the nation (USA) or globally, i think it is relevant to at least address the idea that most of the contributors to this site are white males. I suppose my comment that they [contributors] look vaguely "douchey" is unfair, given that i don't know these people. But I still think it is important to conisder what the general public might surmise from frequenting this site. I don't think it is insignificant that most of the contributors are white males, at least in a purley emotional, socially conscious sense. And I think it is a great lesson of the Austrian school that actions are motivated by emotional drivers. I would have hoped that the interest of free exchange of ideas would predominate on this forum, but I see that moderators have a different ideal of what is free to be discussed.

Josh,

I have no problem with the topic; it's potentially fruitful. I have a problem with sophomoric insults ("douchey") being flung at the scholars associated with LvMI. If you held a large party in your house, and I swaggered in and called you a douchebag in front of all your guests, it would be perfectly appropriate for you to have me escorted out. This is, in essence, no different.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Daniel James Sanchez — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:00:55 GMT

Josh:
I hoped for a more refined sense of humor on this board, but I guess that was optimistic.

Is "douchey" really your idea of "refined"?

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

liberty student — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:53:38 GMT

Sukrit Sabhlok:
P.S. The moderators on this site are hyper-sensitive about anyone criticizing Austro-libertarian authors or the LvMI, even if they're polite. Strangely, their dogmatism isn't shared by some of the leading Austrian thinkers. You get used to it - don't let it put you off the ideas.

You post a thread that promotes an unfounded assertion about a member of the Institute, on the Institute's own website. It was sloppy intellectually and showed a lack of respect for the opportunity to originate your own discussions on someone elses dime. You don't know us, or how many times some of us have taken a strip out of the hide of a LvMI contributor. You're speaking from extreme ignorance once again. Don't make claims about other people you can't back up. One would have thought you learned that lesson from your ignorant Hoppe thread.

As an austrian or libertarian, surely you understand the conception of property rights, and your rights here, are contingent upon the good graces of the site owners, and their proxies.

If you don't like the moderation here, or you don't like that I in particularly am not going to let you post things like "Professor X is a racist and a Homophobe" without substantiated proof, then maybe this community isn't for you. You can post that stuff to your heart's content. On your own dime.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

liberty student — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:41:54 GMT

Josh:

i thought you were joking about moving my topic to the graveyard, but it seems not. I hoped for a more refined sense of humor on this board, but I guess that was optimistic.

You make a broad generalization based on extreme ignorance, and then claim it was an attempt at humour. Be funny on your own time, this forum isn't here to facilitate your joking at the expense of the contributors to the institute.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

onebornfree — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:22:42 GMT

Josh:

Does it concern anyone here that all the contributors to this site seem to be old, white, vageuly douchey looking males? I'm honestly not offering a criticism, merely an observation. It is curious to me that the goals of libertarianism seem to be exclusively or predominately extolled among white males (or at least white people). Is this assumed merely to be a coincedence? Or perhaps a result of historical heritage? I am sincerely curious to know the opinion of people on this site. For my part I am a white male, and I find the Austrain and libertarian arguments to be persuasive. But i also find it possibly disconscerting that everyone who shares my opinion seems also to be white and, often, male.

What's not to understand?

You start out as an inquisitive young white guy who has read up on classical liberalism fairly extensively but who is still naive enough to ignore or simply gloss over certain key elements and conclusions regarding methodological individualism, to the point that you are self- persuaded and convinced to believe that you can free others to your own standards of freedom via a combination of "here, read/watch this" and overt political action [i.e voting for the "right" candidate]......then continue on this path for many years like countless other world changers and "bringers of freedom" before you, never noticing that the rest of the world pretty much stays the same/goes its own way , and that every one [with a few other naive exceptions] pretty much ignores you and your agenda, and does not embrace your version of what their freedom for them should be, regardless of how you label it [e.g Libertarianism,"true" conservatism, paleo-conservatism, classical liberalism, radicalism, constitutionalism, anarcho-capitalism or whatever.]

You end up as a [still] naive old white guy who has thoroughly absorbed much of what you learnt from the naive old white guys when you were a naive young white guy [ i.e. still excluding /glossing over certain key elements and conclusions regarding methodological individualism], but who is nevertheless very skilled at writing/ expounding/arguing /parroting about "freedom for everyone" according to your version of what that "freedom" should mean for them according to what you subjectively interpret it to mean -based mostly on all that stuff you read by old white guys when you were still a . young white guy!

As an old white guy, your market for your time- honed skill? Of course, the one you know best- mostly, naive young white guys - tomorrows naive old white guys!

And so it goes

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Jon Irenicus — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:13:19 GMT

I don't care. And I don't know why anyone would other than PC hysteria. Economics and philosophy are generally dominated by a preponderance of older white men.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Seph — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:46:14 GMT

Josh:
I suppose my primary point is that most proponents of Austrian/libertarian theory believe in such theory because it is rooted in individual freedom, not because it preserves the status quo of white males on top of the earnings picture. I don't think this is an inconsequential point to make (that white males have had inappropriate power), even among discerning, intelligent thinkers. Such people could easily conclude that the history of market interactions has favored white males and thus this would be a powerful incentive to preserve it. I am not suggesting that austro-libertarianism is motivated by preserving this social construct, but i also DO NOT believe it is legitimate to ignore the reality that austro-libertarian ideas seem to be advocated and written about by white males.

So just to be clear, you're advocating this on behalf of a hypothetical person, who might be negatively influenced towards anarcho-capitalist theory because of the over representation of white males who advocate it?

If thats the case and Im not misrepresenting you, then I'd say, in a similar vein of what I've already said, that a person who discounts theories not on the basis of their merit, but on the colour, age and gender of their proponents, is unlikely to be persuaded by logic of any kind....

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

fezwhatley — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:38:41 GMT

since this is a small think tank, the top contributors are professors. And most professors who "profess" (or write on political, economic subjects) are old white men, common dude.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Josh — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:31:44 GMT

Unfortunately I'm still not sure how to do the quote function. But I am responding to Steph's comments. I guess my point is that it might be benficial for this site to expound upond the nonrelation between race/economic station and political view. Of course, historically, it is not coincidental that certain races have come to be dominant in certain areas. I suppose my primary point is that most proponents of Austrian/libertarian theory believe in such theory because it is rooted in individual freedom, not because it preserves the status quo of white males on top of the earnings picture. I don't think this is an inconsequential point to make (that white males have had inappropriate power), even among discerning, intelligent thinkers. Such people could easily conclude that the history of market interactions has favored white males and thus this would be a powerful incentive to preserve it. I am not suggesting that austro-libertarianism is motivated by preserving this social construct, but i also DO NOT believe it is legitimate to ignore the reality that austro-libertarian ideas seem to be advocated and written about by white males.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Capital Pumper — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:27:26 GMT

So is your point that Libertarians can't think outside the box because they're not willing to make a compromise toward affirmative action PR stunts? Who do you think this would impress? CNN?

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Josh — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:12:57 GMT

I'm willing to accept your assertions, generally, Sukrith Sabhlok. I'm not sure I buy the idea that libertarian thinkers are objectively more advanced or diverse in their ability to think (i.e. thinking outside the box). I certainly would assume this is a generalization that you assume but do not have adequate support for. I'm not particularly interested in arguing this point though. I definitely believe the argument that The West (probably best understood as the U.S., at least in today's politcal climate) has a tradition of skepticism of central power. I see how this follows that white males are the predominant group which carries on this heritage. But I still see it as a potential and future detriment to the strength of the cause. Ideological precepts, such as the idea that more free market principles benifit the less priveleged and, necessarily in this country, the minority races, will still lead to the conclusion that the winners in the capitalist system is white males. So if economic incentives are to be respected as legitimate, we must consider the idea that white males may have an interest in preserving their dominance in our economy. I think it would be dishonest to ignore this heritage of our country, even if you argue that free market principles lead to greater racial equality. Thus I generally perceive it as a weakness of this website that its principle contributors are old white men. I sincerely do NOT care what their intentions are, this is in some sense a PR weakness. When I say that the writers here appear 'douchey', I am in some sense trying to be comical, and in another sense trying to represent the general idea of the self-interested wealthy white male. I think if these people (self interested white males) are simultaneously unwilling to accept social stereotypes about them while trying to perpetuate their ideals (classical liberalism), they are pursuing a somewhat deficient course, at least if the goal is to convert people to the classical liberal view.

Re: All the writers on this site are old, white males

Capital Pumper — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:11:02 GMT

Sukrit Sabhlok:

P.S. The moderators on this site are hyper-sensitive about anyone criticizing Austro-libertarian authors or the LvMI, even if they're polite. Strangely, their dogmatism isn't shared by some of the leading Austrian thinkers. You get used to it - don't let it put you off the ideas.

If the idea of revolution here is essentially through information, then proficient marketing is required. How can one successfully sell an idea to the public if their pitch is lousy?

Seph:

If someone bases their ideas on things such as this, then they're most likely brainwashed statists who have long since passed the point of no return.

It sounds like something Cornell West would say.