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Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Knight_of_BAAWA — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:39:17 GMT

scineram:
I will make sure not to disagree vocally with you too much then.

Now prove that it was simply about disagreeing. Go on. You made the claim--you back it up. Go to it.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Jess Porter — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:38:34 GMT

Since I am both an angel and a saint, I would fit right in.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

BlackBobCat.com — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:29:12 GMT

Poptech:

.... when you disagree with Ludwig von Mises

You could also be a statist if you disagree with him :p

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

scineram — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:12:28 GMT

I will make sure not to disagree vocally with you too much then.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Conza88 — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:43:42 GMT

GilesStratton:

Reminds me of somebody else around here.

</>

Ok, too far? :) It is the thread graveyard but.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

hayekianxyz — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:40:25 GMT

Reminds me of somebody else around here.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Knight_of_BAAWA — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:35:08 GMT

No. He's a crank troll. He has no interest in any sort of real discussion.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

scineram — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:00:10 GMT

So will his ban expire sometime?

Re: You know you're a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist when...

krazy kaju — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 05:49:24 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

Poptech:
.... when you disagree with Ludwig von Mises

Hoppe:

   Rothbard's anarchism was not the sort of anarchism that his teacher and mentor Mises had rejected as hopelessly naive, of course. "The anarchists," Mises had written,

contend that a social order in which nobody enjoys privileges at the expense of his fellow-citizens could exist without any compulsion and coercion for the prevention of action detrimental to society. . . . The anarchists overlook the undeniable fact that some people are either too narrow-minded or too weak to adjust themselves spontaneously to the conditions of social life. . . . An anarchistic society would be exposed to the mercy of every individual. Society cannot exist if the majority is not ready to hinder, by the application or threat of violent action, minorities from destroying the social order.[10]

     Indeed, Rothbard wholeheartedly agreed with Mises that without resort to compulsion, the existence of society would be endangered and that behind the rules of conduct whose observance is necessary to assure peaceful human cooperation must stand the threat to force if the whole edifice of society is not to be continually at the mercy of any one of its members. One must be in a position to compel a person who will not respect the lives, health, personal freedom, or private property of others to acquiesce in the rules of life in society.[11]

     Inspired in particular by the nineteenth-century American anarchist political theorists Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker and the Belgian economist Gustave de Molinari, from the outset Rothbard's anarchism took it for granted that there will always be murderers, thieves, thugs, con artists, etc., and that life in society would be impossible if they were not punished by physical force. As a reflection of this fundamental realism—anti-utopianism—of his private-property anarchism, Rothbard, unlike most contemporary political philosophers, accorded central importance to the subject of punishment. For him, private property and the right to physical defense were inseparable. No one can be said to be the owner of something if he is not permitted to defend his property by physical violence against possible invaders and invasions. "Would," Rothbard asked, "somebody be allowed to 'take the law into his own hands'? Would the victim, or a friend of the victim, be allowed to exact justice personally on the criminal?" and he answered, "of course, Yes, since all rights of punishment derive from the victim's right of self-defense" (p. 90). Hence, the question is not whether or not evil and aggression exist, but how to deal with its existence justly and efficiently, and it is only in the answer to this question that Rothbard reaches conclusions which qualify him as an anarchist.

^ That is a very good quote. It seems more like Mises was critiquing the left-wing "social" anarchists, like Kropotkin, who assumed that if we just made society "just," crime would go away. That's what many leftist anarchists still believe today.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Andrew Cain — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 05:48:32 GMT

David Gordon:
Dear Mr. Cain,

Thanks for your excellent question. I don't think that there is a contradiction between Rothbard's anarchism and his 1951 article; there is rather a different use of the word "anarchism." In the 1951 article, he says that anarchist movements of the past tended to be collectivist; further, there isn't a fixed meaning for the term. For these reasons, he at that time preferred to find a different word for his own political doctrine. On this point, he later changed his mind and didn't have problems in calling himself an anarchist.

An easy way to see why there isn't a contradiction is this: what Rothbard was converted to in graduate school was the belief that we do not need a monopoly state. This belief need not entail that the word "anarchism" is suitable to describe this belief.

Here is a link to the 1951 article, in case you don't have it handy: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard167.html

Best wishes,

David Gordon

The great David Gordon has spoken and so shall it be!

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Angurse — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 05:40:31 GMT

Conza88:

Are Libertarians "Anarchists"? - Murray N. Rothbard

Rothbard didn't associate with the label, "anarchism" until after the 50's. Rothbard as seen above, associated it with socialism. Just as Mises would have. It's pretty clear. When was Human action written?

This had already been pointed out to Poptech in his Mises thread.

Angurse:
Liberalism was published in 1927, Rothbard was about 1 years old. However, Rothbard didn't create it, but before him it wasn't really known as anarchy so its irrelevant. "Anarchy" in von Mises' day was that of the Collectivist-Socialist variety, obviously Mises wouldn't think too highly of it.

Angurse:
Also, among most anarchists "anarcho-capitalism" isn't considered to be a form of anarchism at all, even Rothbard stated that libertarians are not anarchists.

Angurse:
The average anarchist will say "anarcho"-capitalism to point out that its a contradiction (incorrectly mind you).

Rothbard:

We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Conza88 — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 05:27:04 GMT

Poptech, you seemed to have missed this thread.

nirgrahamUK:
Conza88 quoting Rothbard:
The major difficulty in any analysis of anarchism is that the term covers extremely conflicting doctrines. The root of the word comes from the term anarche, meaning opposition to authority or commands. This is broad enough to cover a host of different political doctrines. Generally these doctrines have been lumped together as "anarchist" because of their common hostility to the existence of the State, the coercive monopolist of force and authority. Anarchism arose in the 19th century, and since then the most active and dominant anarchist doctrine has been that of "anarchist communism." This is an apt tern for a doctrine which has also been called "collectivist anarchism," "anarcho-syndicalism," and "libertarian communism." We may term this set of related doctrines "left-wing anarchism." Anarchist communism is primarily of Russian origin, forged by Prince Peter Kropotkin and Michael Bakunin, and it is this form that has connoted "anarchism" throughout the continent of Europe.

could have used you back in the Poptech on Mises' Minarchism thread...

Are Libertarians "Anarchists"? - Murray N. Rothbard

Rothbard didn't associate with the label, "anarchism" until after the 50's. Rothbard as seen above, associated it with socialism. Just as Mises would have. It's pretty clear. When was Human action written?

Great quote btw nirgraham.

Re: You know you're a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist when...

Angurse — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 04:39:05 GMT

Poptech:

Again, real definitions not made up ones.

anarchy (defined) - "the absence of any formal system of government in a society"

Well, MSN is the absolute final official when it comes to definitions. Seriously, what did Proudhon, the first ever "Anarchist," know about the definition of anarchy?

If thats the definition you want to use, then Murray Rothbards system isn't anarchy. As the system of government would be provided on the market as opposed to by a state.

Re: Poptech's Latest Cry for Attention re:You know you're a libertarian/ancap when...

Daniel James Sanchez — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 04:36:10 GMT

Poptech:
It was sarcastic but no attempt at anything other than that was implied.

BS.

Poptech:
Who decides what is appropriate? You?

Everyone has their own opinion of what is appropriate. Most would regard several of your posts inappropriate for the topics of the threads they were posted in. I certainly do.

Poptech:

Lilburne:
If anything, you're turning people off of minarchism with your antics.

Am I?

Poptech, what was the point of asking, "Am I?"

Poptech:

Lilburne:
So grow up, or get out.

Is this another regulation I am to follow?

Yes. Is that ironic to you, my snarky fellow? Do we have to go over such a basic distinction as the difference between state coercion and the conditional use of private property?

Re: You know you're a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist when...

Poptech — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 04:26:50 GMT

Angurse:
From the FAQ...

Again, real definitions not made up ones.

anarchy (defined) - "the absence of any formal system of government in a society"

Does anarcho mean anarchy? Yes or No?