Economics Questions

Re: Definitions of capital

Harry Felker — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:48:59 GMT

eliotn:
"As you will see, we hold that it is the class division and profit motive of capitalism that is at the root of most of the world's problems today, from starvation to war, to alienation and crime. Every aspect of our lives is subordinated to the worst excesses of the drive to make profit. In capitalist society, our real needs will only ever come a poor second to the requirements of profit."

Ignoring that profits are what pay for needs...

eliotn:
"It is also possible (at least in theory) to have a free market economy that is not capitalist. Such a 'market economy' would involve farmers, artisans and shopkeepers each producing a particular product that they would exchange via the medium of money. There would be no profit-making and no class division—just independent producers exchanging goods for their mutual benefit. But it is doubtful whether such an economy has ever existed."

Yes in Oz, until the lollypop guild started roughing up the works....

Re: Definitions of capital

eliotn — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:41:47 GMT

The worst part was this quote:

"As you will see, we hold that it is the class division and profit motive of capitalism that is at the root of most of the world's problems today, from starvation to war, to alienation and crime. Every aspect of our lives is subordinated to the worst excesses of the drive to make profit. In capitalist society, our real needs will only ever come a poor second to the requirements of profit."

Do they actually believe this crap?

I found this website, and found this:

"It is also possible (at least in theory) to have a free market economy that is not capitalist. Such a 'market economy' would involve farmers, artisans and shopkeepers each producing a particular product that they would exchange via the medium of money. There would be no profit-making and no class division—just independent producers exchanging goods for their mutual benefit. But it is doubtful whether such an economy has ever existed."

LULZ.

http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/what_is_capitalism.php

Re: Definitions of capital

Harry Felker — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:40:12 GMT

eliotn:
Is there a grain of truth in what the socialists claim about capital?

Do they believe that tripe, yes, does belief make things true, no....

Re: Definitions of capital

liberty student — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:58:32 GMT

david_z:
That is the 30-second demolition of Das Kapital. (Thanks to Thorsmitresaw on Youtube for pointing that one out.)

Excellent. Thanks DZ.

Re: Definitions of capital

David Z — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:23:51 GMT

Don't forget (and this is of paramount importance!) that all capital goods are the product of one's labor.

So much for the socialist cry, that he should receive the full product of his labor. Now, if he must receive the product of his labor (setting aside the qualifier "full" which was aptly torpedoed by Eugen Bohm-Bawerk in C & I) then he may certainly accumulate capital. Surely then, anyone who tries to deprive the producer of his product, should be viewed as a thief, an undesirable. Therefore, the mere fact that the product of my labor differs in some subjective way (i.e., someone deems it to be a "capital" good) does not by itself, constitute any justifiable reason for depriving me of my control/ownership thereof.

That is the 30-second demolition of Das Kapital. (Thanks to Thorsmitresaw on Youtube for pointing that one out.)

Re: Definitions of capital

Andrew Cain — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:46:45 GMT

Stranger:

It would if it were monopolistic. If you can get infinite government bail-outs, pretty soon you will own the entire market.

A point you should express to the Marxists.

Re: Definitions of capital

Juan — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:48:11 GMT

Laughing man:
One of their lovely contradictions. For some bizzaro reason [or lack of] they believe that public monopolies are somehow just and private monopolies unjust. It is almost utilitarian in a way.

Public debt doesn't really exist. We owe it to ourselves...

Re: Definitions of capital

Stranger — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:19:17 GMT

Laughing Man:

Stranger:
Those would be more accurately described as 'monopolists'.

According to Marxist theory, capitalism leads to monopoly.

It would if it were monopolistic. If you can get infinite government bail-outs, pretty soon you will own the entire market.

Re: Definitions of capital

eliotn — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:52:19 GMT

Laughing Man:
One of their lovely contradictions.

One good contradiction is when Orwell showed how the state is bad, but denied that he was attacking socialism. But logically, he was showing how it failed.

Re: Definitions of capital

Andrew Cain — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:10:06 GMT

One of their lovely contradictions. For some bizzaro reason [or lack of] they believe that public monopolies are somehow just and private monopolies unjust. It is almost utilitarian in a way.

Re: Definitions of capital

DanielMuff — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:19:02 GMT

Yet, socialism is monopolistic by definition.

Re: Definitions of capital

Andrew Cain — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:57:24 GMT

Stranger:
Those would be more accurately described as 'monopolists'.

According to Marxist theory, capitalism leads to monopoly.

Re: Definitions of capital

Stranger — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:52:52 GMT

Laughing Man:

DD5:

Anybody who has some savings in a bank, stocks, 401K, etc... is a Capitalist.

According to Marxists, Capitalists are those who survive solely on surplus profit from 'exploitation'.

Those would be more accurately described as 'monopolists'.

Re: Definitions of capital

MatthewWilliam — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:36:38 GMT

liberty student:
You should call them out on using capitalist Google infrastructure for their socialism. Find out if they have credit cards, and willingly submitted to exploitation from Mastercard and Visa.

Why bother. They will only claim they are being coerced.

Re: Definitions of capital

liberty student — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:07:38 GMT

Chodorov used to love arguing with socialists. But I don't think it is very productive myself. These people are lala land dreamers, and basically no threat to anything because people with anti-capitalist sentiments are not going to be effective organizers or promoters.

I suppose it is good for sharpening your wits and arguments.

You should call them out on using capitalist Google infrastructure for their socialism. Find out if they have credit cards, and willingly submitted to exploitation from Mastercard and Visa.