Economics Questions

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

filc — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:08:40 GMT

Rather than taking our word for it and cherry picking which response sounds most pleasing to your ear why not read up on the subject? 22 pages on this thread you were willing to invest time into, why not invest time into a good book instead?

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

mickanomics — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:35:05 GMT

Snowflake:
mickanomics:
What is the difference between a landlord "acting on your behalf" and a government?
Because the landlord legitimately retains ownership (or partial ownership) of the residential area, and his residents have entered into a voluntary contract with him.

Out of all the answers I've heard in this most recent episode on this thread, snowflake's observation that the problems are "solved" through common landlords and contracts rings the most true. However I believe that common landlords and contracts have almost the exact set of problems (in the long term) as governments for reasons discussed much earlier in this thread. So to save us all from going round in circles I shall make this my last comment in this thread unless someone posts something here which covers genuinely new territory.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Justin Spahr-Summers — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:38:01 GMT

mickanomics:
Imagine a long street in the center of new york with 5000 houses or flats. Each dwelling is owned by a different person.

Like Snowflake said, this initial scenario is already impractical and typically only made possible through government intervention, for exactly the same reasons that you're trying to denounce the free market.

mickanomics:
Then one day God himself scraped off all the tarmac and replace the entire road with dirt, puddles, trees grass etc.

The only real "higher power" that would do such an idiotic thing is a government.

mickanomics:
He can calls down to the populous and says "The government is not allowed to pay for, or build a new read here otherwise I will order up some pestilence, famine and floods. The residents can re-build the road if they want to, but the government are not allowed to pressurize them to do so".

Please tell me what you would expect to see in that "road" five years later. If you think there will be a proper tarmac road then tell me:

A) who built it with what money and who pays for its upkeep.

How can we pretend to know that? Only government and mickanomics ascribe omniscience to themselves. Any of the following could happen: all of the residents chip in because it's that beneficial to all of them; some of the residents chip in because it's that beneficial to them (even without the cooperation of the rest); one resident pays for it all because it's that beneficial to him; a private company comes in and builds the road then charges a toll; a private company comes in, builds the road, and then only paves driveways up to those properties that pay a due; all or most of the residents are members of a HOA or similar organization and regularly pay dues, so the HOA takes the responsibility of creating and maintaining the road; something not listed here that a clever entrepreneur came up with, because entrepreneurs are always coming up with business models and solutions that others can't even fathom.

mickanomics:
B) Would they let big heavy lorries drive down their road?

Let me call these hypothetical people and see. Seriously, does it matter? If big trucks can't drive down their road, tough shit, because it's theirs. They can find another, or the owners of the road might realize that they're losing a bunch of business because of such a restriction.

mickanomics:
C) Presumably there will be at least some residents that don't want to pay anything for the road. How they are treated by their neighbors?

Probably horribly, and rightly so. Even under government, nobody gets roads "for free." The cost is just spread evenly across everyone in the form of taxes and inflation. It's possible, as demonstrated by some possible solutions that I listed above, that they wouldn't even get access to the road without paying. If you think it's more just for everyone to pay for all roads, regardless of their usage, as opposed to the users and beneficiaries of a road paying for its upkeep, then we shouldn't even bother having this discussion, because you've already made up your mind.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Stranger — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:24:21 GMT

I don't think you are looking at government-free cities at the right scale. It makes a lot more sense for cities to scale up than for governments to. A large metropolitan area needs "streets" (infrastructure) that span over hundreds of kilometers.

But if the city is not a judge in disputes involving itself, and there are multiple such competing judges in this city, then this city is no different from any multi-national corporation. Just like Sony is staffed by citizens of many nations, and operates in many nations, so can a city.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:17:48 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Yes: government acquiescence, usually.

mickanomics:
I'm sure you are wrong there. Certainly in the UK.

You need government permission to either make a road private or build a private road. I do not know of any 1st or 2nd world country where this isn't true. Hell--you need government permission to install a pool! What makes you think a road is any different?

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:15:42 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
how about something that has some comport with reality.

mickanomics:
Surely the whole study of anarchism is a study of how things would work *in theory*

And that as least has some comport with reality. Your example was simply a cartoon fantasy.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

filc — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:55:03 GMT

mickanomics:

filc:
Is it impractical to have two types of milk at the grocery store?

No, they are entirely different cases, for reasons discussed at length earlier in this thread.

Are you trying to argue that some market goods are 'special' and don't follow traditional rules of economics? If so than I could see how you came to the conclusion that they are different. However if one lives in a state of reality, A = A. Market goods are market goods and all scarce things follow the same economic laws as anything else.

So they are not entirely different cases at all. You let scale disrupt your understanding of goods.

mickanomics:
Hang on a second... it seems that my suggesting that B is true is due to my idiotic pretence to be omniscient, yet your assertion that A is true is somehow your genius expertise?

But you ARE PRETENDING to KNOW what the most effecient means of transporting drinking water is. You've passed a judgement that competition would be counter effective to effeciency. Allow me to quote yourself.

mickanomics:
I'm just suggesting that its rather impractical to have two sets of mains running down one street.

So you ARE attempting to be omniscient. YOu ARE pretending to 'know it all'.

Whats worse is you openly admit to being ignornant on the topic, and are willingly going to continue to be ignorant of the subject. You refuse to read any book about the subject. Instead you somehow feal that you have the authority to make such silly arguments here while remaining in your state of ignorance.

mickanomics:
I here by confess that I am not well read enough to know about such a citation. Or even if it exists. I am not pretending to know of such a citation. But filc has stated that "A" was "observed"... so I want to know about his "observation".

FYI Several pages earlier in this thread I posted a long example for you where third world countries when left unfettered they created their own private water distribution systems. So I ask you again, how can the poorest nations in our world accomplish such a simple service where we cannot?

mickanomics:

filc:
Is it impractical to have two types of milk at the grocery store?

No, they are entirely different cases, for reasons discussed at length earlier in this thread.

filc:
Pretending to know how things SHOULD be is pretending to be omniscient.

Hang on a second... it seems that my suggesting that B is true is due to my idiotic pretence to be omniscient, yet your assertion that A is true is somehow your genius expertise?

The reason why I have not cited anything is because it's a very childish question. Would you ask me to cite the information revealing that gravity exists? Would you deny the existence of gravity untill I cited you that source? Furthermore what's a source? You need not look for a source to see the proof of my argument demonstrated.

Tell me Mickanomics, does your city provide you it's water? Does it provide the water because business's wouldn't? It is YOU who needs to prove to US that private company's would willingly neglect such a business endeavor. Not the other way around. The EVIDENCE is quiet apparent in nearly every major city in the United States.

Why not instead of keeping this thread going go read a book on the topic? THere are plenty here available on the mises.org site or the book store.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Sieben — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:01:52 GMT

mickanomics:
Maybe so. But presumably, if you want anarchy, you have to start from where we are.

We *currently* rent apartments from landlords and *currently* have neighborhood associations. Here is proof.

Here and here.

mickanomics:
What is the difference between a landlord "acting on your behalf" and a government?

Because the landlord legitimately retains ownership (or partial ownership) of the residential area, and his residents have entered into a voluntary contract with him.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

mickanomics — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:59:21 GMT

Snowflake:
This is an impractical living arrangement and would probably never arise on the free market.

Maybe so. But presumably, if you want anarchy, you have to start from where we are.

Snowflake:
so the landlord can act on everyone's behalf

What is the difference between a landlord "acting on your behalf" and a government?

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

mickanomics — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:52:45 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Yes: government acquiescence, usually.

I'm sure you are wrong there. Certainly in the UK.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Stranger — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:52:08 GMT

mickanomics:

I just came up with the following thought experiment....

Imagine a long street in the center of new york with 5000 houses or flats. Each dwelling is owned by a different person.

Then one day God himself scraped off all the tarmac and replace the entire road with dirt, puddles, trees grass etc. He can calls down to the populous and says "The government is not allowed to pay for, or build a new read here otherwise I will order up some pestilence, famine and floods. The residents can re-build the road if they want to, but the government are not allowed to pressurize them to do so".

Hey guys, I have a question that points out a hole in the free market theory, which is how can the free market deal with God's wrath?

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

mickanomics — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:51:59 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
how about something that has some comport with reality.

Surely the whole study of anarchism is a study of how things would work *in theory* because anarchy has never existed anywhere for any sustained period in the modern world... Actually I'm just guessing there - has it existed for a sustained period somewhere?

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:05:10 GMT

mickanomics:
I just came up with the following thought experiment....

Oh boy...

mickanomics:
Imagine a long street in the center of new york with 5000 houses or flats. Each dwelling is owned by a different person.

Then one day God himself scraped off all the tarmac and replace the entire road with dirt, puddles, trees grass etc. He can calls down to the populous and says "The government is not allowed to pay for, or build a new read here otherwise I will order up some pestilence, famine and floods. The residents can re-build the road if they want to, but the government are not allowed to pressurize them to do so".

Ok, now how about something that has some comport with reality.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:03:39 GMT

mickanomics:
i have read every single post in this entire thread. I know full well that private roads exist, tens of thousands of them and in countries where the vast majority of roads are state owned. I also have learned that it needs a special set of circumstances for them to exist

Yes: government acquiescence, usually. So perhaps you should consider that. Finally.

Re: Can street cleaners evolve in a free market?

Sieben — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:29:01 GMT

mickanomics:
Imagine a long street in the center of new york with 5000 houses or flats. Each dwelling is owned by a different person.

This is an impractical living arrangement and would probably never arise on the free market. That many people sharing that much space causes the collective action problem to arise. The free market tends to combat the collective action problem through things like neighborhood associations in suburbs, and renting rather than owning apartments (so the landlord can act on everyone's behalf).

I know you're trying to set up the thought experiment in a way that causes no private road to be built, so fine. Just realize this never happens on the free market because the collective action problem has historically been solved time and time again.

mickanomics:

Please tell me what you would expect to see in that "road" five years later. If you think there will be a proper tarmac road then tell me:

Couldn't tell you. Subjective preferences and whatnot.

mickanomics:
A) who built it with what money and who pays for its upkeep.

Some entrepreneur might be able to overcome the collective action problem some other way. A private company could just build the road and charge a toll.

mickanomics:
B) Would they let big heavy lorries drive down their road?

Maybe. Private roads tend to charge more on a per-axle basis. If the vehicle does more damage to the road, it costs you more so you gotta charge more.

mickanomics:
C) Presumably there will be at least some residents that don't want to pay anything for the road. How they are treated by their neighbors?

The free rider problem would be overcome through toll collection.

In short, I believe that the toll road is the easiest and most common solution to the collective action problem where roads are concerned. Historically, other things have happened, like the 3-4 richest businesses in town will build the road and donate it to the public since they would benefit so much from the commerce. Bottom line is you can't really predict what will happen on the free market, i've just regurgitated the typical cases from history.