Economics Questions

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Sieben — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:22:23 GMT

Conza88:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux6.html

672 Minarchism, Libertarianism and Logic

"The state is not inefficient for everyone..."

I dont have time to listen to the clip now but it occurred to me after I posted that there are several obvious counters to what I was saying ><

I suppose I meant the state is bad for the common man/overall.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

The Late Andrew Ryan — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:52:12 GMT

laminustacitus:
Daniel:
Did I offend you?

Why would you offend me?

liberty student:

laminustacitus:
Maybe you should abandon the idea that it is such a self evident fact (or even a fact at all).

Lam, do you need the state?

To flourish in a material sense, I need the state to establish an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently. Without the state, there is no good reason to believe why private defense providers would cooperate thus there is no method of knowing a priori whether an anarchist society would be able to provide the necessary institutions to cultivate the division of labor, and inter-temporal planning.

There's also no example of a state that has only been constrained to defence functions for any significant period of time without soon beggining to sip from the poisoned bottle of statism, interventionism and corpratism (with the possibile exception of western countries in the 1800s but ooooh how the tides have turned!). Why wouldn't defence agencies work together? That's like saying phone lines or banks would never work with each other

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Thedesolateone — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:44:44 GMT

@ OP

Don't go straight out saying you want to abolish the state. Never deny it, but don't let them bring it in as a "knockdown argument". It shouldn't be like this, but people don't respect us if they know of our anti-statism.

Argue against specific things. Point out how regulation isn't needed when it is relevant to what you are already talking about. Point out how the state messes so many things up. Point out the flaws in the reasoning of statists and Keynesians.

Then when they're a minarchist (i.e. ideal situation), they should be convertable to full freedom. That's how it worked on me, although noone was converting me, it was happening in my head, and through mises.org readership and posting here.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Conza88 — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:16:04 GMT

Snowflake:

Conza88:
The argument from efficiency is so useless.
Why? The state is a complete failure in every way.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux6.html

672 Minarchism, Libertarianism and Logic

"The state is not inefficient for everyone..."

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:37:13 GMT

laminustacitus:
Certain actions have, but those have not been able to completely undo society in the long-run.

Now that's a ringing endorsement.

laminustacitus:
Justice is, by its very nature, empirical

Justice? I thought you were just concerned with division of labour and inter-temporal planning.

laminustacitus:
it cannot rest on a priori proofs

Then, why are you demanding an a priori proof for the efficacy of anarchism?

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

DanielMuff — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:32:41 GMT

laminustacitus:

Daniel:

There is no good reason to believe that the state could establish and maintain an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently.

Then you are oblivious to the world around you.

Are you saying that the state has established and maintained an institutional framework in which the market has functioned efficiently?

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Seph — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:32:16 GMT

laminustacitus:

Daniel:
Did I offend you?

Why would you offend me?

liberty student:

laminustacitus:
Maybe you should abandon the idea that it is such a self evident fact (or even a fact at all).

Lam, do you need the state?

To flourish in a material sense, I need the state to establish an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently. Without the state, there is no good reason to believe why private defense providers would cooperate thus there is no method of knowing a priori whether an anarchist society would be able to provide the necessary institutions to cultivate the division of labor, and inter-temporal planning.

Lets not sugarcoat it.

You support putting a gun to the head of others and forcing them to give money to a cause you think is a good one.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

laminustacitus — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:23:23 GMT

Daniel:

There is no good reason to believe that the state could establish and maintain an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently.

Then you are oblivious to the world around you.

Lilburne:

laminustacitus:
Without the state, there is no good reason to believe why private defense providers would cooperate thus there is no method of knowing a priori whether an anarchist society would be able to provide the necessary institutions to cultivate the division of labor, and inter-temporal planning.

The state has done much to stymie the division of labor and inter-temporal planning.

Certain actions have, but those have not been able to completely undo society in the long-run.

Lilburne:
our demand for a priori certainty of the efficacy of anarchism makes it seem like your stance is based on the "better the devil you know than the devil you don't" argument.

Justice is, by its very nature, empirical - it cannot rest on a priori proofs, but rather must emerge from experience, and tradition.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:11:07 GMT

laminustacitus:
Without the state, there is no good reason to believe why private defense providers would cooperate thus there is no method of knowing a priori whether an anarchist society would be able to provide the necessary institutions to cultivate the division of labor, and inter-temporal planning.

The state has done much to stymie the division of labor and inter-temporal planning. Your demand for a priori certainty of the efficacy of anarchism makes it seem like your stance is based on the "better the devil you know than the devil you don't" argument.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

DanielMuff — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:06:19 GMT

There is no good reason to believe that the state could establish and maintain an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

DanielMuff — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:04:26 GMT

laminustacitus:

Daniel:
Did I offend you?

Why would you offend me?

liberty student:

laminustacitus:
Maybe you should abandon the idea that it is such a self evident fact (or even a fact at all).

Lam, do you need the state?

To flourish in a material sense, I need the state to establish an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently. Without the state, there is no good reason to believe why private defense providers would cooperate thus there is no method of knowing a priori whether an anarchist society would be able to provide the necessary institutions to cultivate the division of labor, and inter-temporal planning.

Thank God the Wright brothers believed that they could build flying machines.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

laminustacitus — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:52:54 GMT

Daniel:
Did I offend you?

Why would you offend me?

liberty student:

laminustacitus:
Maybe you should abandon the idea that it is such a self evident fact (or even a fact at all).

Lam, do you need the state?

To flourish in a material sense, I need the state to establish an institutional framework in which the market can function efficiently. Without the state, there is no good reason to believe why private defense providers would cooperate thus there is no method of knowing a priori whether an anarchist society would be able to provide the necessary institutions to cultivate the division of labor, and inter-temporal planning.

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

liberty student — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:44:25 GMT

laminustacitus:
Maybe you should abandon the idea that it is such a self evident fact (or even a fact at all).

Lam, do you need the state?

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

DanielMuff — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:44:13 GMT

laminustacitus:

Daniel:

laminustacitus:

TelfordUS:
Whenever I try to explain that the state isn't needed to a statist colleague, he just grins and chuckles, and I'm called a "silly radical" and such, like I'm an idiot.

Maybe you should abandon the idea that it is such a self evident fact (or even a fact at all).

Some people need the state, for example, politicians.

Do you think you're being witty?

Did I offend you?

Re: How do I argue with a statist?

Saan — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:42:52 GMT

I've learned that if you really want to convince these people, get everyone else to chuckle at them and call them a silly radical. Take the same attitude towards the state, use a little comedy and turn the tables. Put him/her in the position of being ridiculed. Use the NAP and only reciprocate in kind. You are allowed to defend yourself from passive aggression as well.