Economics Questions

Re: Legal Tender Laws

mouser98 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:47:50 GMT

Magistrate Martin V. Mahoney believes the FRNs are unconstitutional:

http://www.constitutionalconcepts.org/credit%20river.pdf

Re: Legal Tender Laws

Bostwick — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:34:45 GMT

jmorris84:
My point, with this thread, was that the law doesn't necessarily seem to stop us from coming up with any currency system that we want.

JonBostwick:

But ultimately legally of an action is determined by whether or not the government will use its gun men to prevent it. The Justice department says its illegal to issue a currecy competing with the dollar. Liberty Dollar Raid

jmorris84:
It is illegal for a store owner, it seems, to deny one from paying with a federal reserve note but it also doesn't stop the store owner from accepting payment in peanuts.

JonBostwick:

Notice that not being required to accept dollars is not the same thing as being free to accept non-dollars.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

Michelangelo — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:50:48 GMT

Wouldn't this be an example of Gresham's Law? While we could most certainly could use 'good' money such as gold, we have little incentive to do so as long as Federal Reserve Notes must be accepted by shop keepers. Why would I give a shop keeper a currency redeemable for actual gold (or other precious metals), when I can give him a federal reserve note that is legally worth the same, but can not be redeemed for any sort of precious metal? Rationally I would keep the goldnote for myself and use the 'bad' currency for my transactions. Unless of course I got a thrill out of giving people goldnotes and seeing their reaction; but I do rather like gold more so that's unlikely.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

sthomper — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:38:53 GMT

firstly, if the dollar has lost 95% percent of its value since its creation....would you happen to know how much wages have increased since the dollars creation?

maybe the govt would consider gold and silver money as a special asset (environmentally harmful or something)..and tax it appropriately in gold and silver payments. maybe worse than dollar/fed note taxes now.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

jmorris84 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:22:57 GMT

sthomper:

this sentence seems a bit confusing..what exactly do you mean?

"I live in Pennsylvania and can "find no law that states I can't accept or pay in gold or silver coins."

i guess you mean here "i can find no law that states i cant pay in gold or silver coins"

if a good/service is priced in dollars that you want to pay to aquire...that might require negotiation with the dollar-denominated good seller.

if you aquired the good/service on credit to be paid for in dollars....constitutionally, it would ultimately seem to have to be paid in gold and/or silver. contractually, i guess you could pay debt in dollars.

if you mean you cant find a law that says 'you can pay in gold and silver coins'....then i guess you can pay what a seller requires if its gold and/or silver then goody for you.

I said accept or pay because I never clarified whether I was the customer or the business owner. I was also using gold as an example. My point, with this thread, was that the law doesn't necessarily seem to stop us from coming up with any currency system that we want. It is illegal for a store owner, it seems, to deny one from paying with a federal reserve note but it also doesn't stop the store owner from accepting payment in peanuts. So why haven't we, the market, essentially moved away from using the federal reserve note altogether and begun using something that is more desirable to us? Clearly the dollar (federal reserve note) is a worthless piece of paper and has lost 95% of it's "value" since its creation, so why haven't we moved towards something else? Again, the law doesn't seem to stop us from doing so.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

sthomper — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:41:11 GMT

this sentence seems a bit confusing..what exactly do you mean?

"I live in Pennsylvania and can "find no law that states I can't accept or pay in gold or silver coins."

i guess you mean here "i can find no law that states i cant pay in gold or silver coins"

if a good/service is priced in dollars that you want to pay to aquire...that might require negotiation with the dollar-denominated good seller.

if you aquired the good/service on credit to be paid for in dollars....constitutionally, it would ultimately seem to have to be paid in gold and/or silver. contractually, i guess you could pay debt in dollars.

if you mean you cant find a law that says 'you can pay in gold and silver coins'....then i guess you can pay what a seller requires if its gold and/or silver then goody for you.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

sthomper — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:08:14 GMT

congress shall have power to....To coin money,....unless coin had a different meaning...coin, i have read, is metal money. maybe the congress went against itself and made the word coin into the word dollar.

no state shall....coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;....so states cant coin money, apparently only federal govt mints and private mints.

but come payment time, if you cant pay in peanut shells like a contract may have said, one has to pay in in gold and silver coin...according to section i. whatever of the us constitution

i cant find the word currency in early constitution...only the word money and it seems to have to be coined by the govt or individuals if they wish.

if credit back then meant...here, have a good or service and pay with with something next tuesday...if the something couldnt be come up with..then someone in a black robe would make up a money amount that had to be paid, right? that would be a debt?

i assume the govt then required tax payments in gold or silver...so a conversion from peanut shells to coin may have been a problem.

but i guess with hand to hand purchases anyone could use gold or silver. eat a candy bar in a store..get in debt to the owner and try to pay in gold or silver.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

sthomper — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:43:46 GMT

currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt. The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, defines legal tender as "United States coins and currency

There is, however, no federal statute requiring a private business, a person or an organization to accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services.

does the us govt statutes require anywhere that payment goods/services be treated as payementss of debts even though there is no federal statute? if i leave a store with a candy bar...am i in debt to the store owner for a candy bar or its us currency value or is that a good?

Re: Legal Tender Laws

Bogart — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:15:37 GMT

Of course that is the law and the Constitution itself mentions coining money not printing it. Either way, it is just words on paper. The US government and probably the states and localities will use any force at their disposal to stop people from using alternative mediums of exchange. The Federal Reserve System is the heart of the warfare/welfare state and alternate mediums of exchange take away the Feds ability to fund government through inflation.

Re: Legal Tender Laws

Bostwick — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:00:01 GMT

Notice that not being required to accept dollars is not the same thing as being free to accept non-dollars. But in reality a shop is not even free to turn down dollars because to do so would be an illegal act of discrimination against that customer.

Laws about the use of Gold? One immediately thinks of 1933 to 1971 when it was illegal to even own gold bullion. Or the numerous Lincoln era laws forcing people to use greenbacks.

But ultimately legally of an action is determined by whether or not the government will use its gun men to prevent it. The Justice department says its illegal to issue a currecy competing with the dollar. Liberty Dollar Raid

Legal Tender Laws

jmorris84 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:23:19 GMT

Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt. The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, defines legal tender as "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no federal statute requiring a private business, a person or an organization to accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses may adopt their own policies on whether or not to accept cash as long it doesn't violate state law. For example, a business may refuses to accept payment in pennies or large denomination bills as a matter of policy.

I live in Pennsylvania and can find no law that states I can't accept or pay in gold or silver coins. If this is really the case, then what is stopping us from coming up with and using our own form of currency? I understand that federal reserve notes are deemed as legal currency but it doesn't seem like any other form of currency is being stopped from evolving and taking over either. If the market wants it, then what is stopping it from showing up?