Economics Questions

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Poptech — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:53:09 GMT

Here is a good summary of what is wrong with Canadian health care,

(Please visit the site to view this media)

Canadacare May Have Killed Actress Natasha Richardson (New York Post)

Wait times for surgery in Canada at all-time high: study (CBC, Canada)

"In Canada, the average wait for a simple MRI is three months. In Manitoba, the median wait for neurosurgery is 15.2 months. For chemotherapy in Saskatchewan, patients can expect to be in line for 10 weeks. At last report, 10,000 breast cancer patients who waited an average of two months for post-operation radiation treatments have filed a class action lawsuit against Quebec's hospitals."

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Seph — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:28:51 GMT

A) Because we dont use it that often

B) Because we cant see how much lower our taxes would be without it

C) Because we like the fuzzy, warm idea of everyone being equal

D) Because in the States, millions of people are uninsured and have to die on the streets because they cant get coverage- this is the 'free market option'

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Caley McKibbin — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:38:20 GMT

bearing01:

Canada has a doctor shortage in many places, especially in clinics or hospitals in rural communities.

The physician per capita is hardly different. Canadian hospitals and clinics waste more space and manpower for various reasons.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Caley McKibbin — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:12:20 GMT

bearing01:

I know of many Canadians who live in the USA for employment and financial reasons, and don't want to move back in order to get back their "free" health care. I don't know of any Americans who moved to Canada so they could pay higher taxes and get "free" health care. Not one.

Pwned.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Caley McKibbin — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:10:50 GMT

The entire world is cartelized for doctors. The difference is they are entitled to sell services in the U.S.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Hard Rain — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:32:00 GMT

It doesn't surprise me that Canadian doctors flock to the US. Once they get into the medical cartel they're on the gravy train all the way...

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

bearing01 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 23:38:09 GMT

I lived in Canada until I was 27 years old.

Most Canadians that "love" their health care system typically use it once every few years. They accept "free" health care as part of life. They don't think or care about it until the day they get ill. Then they complain that they had to wait 6 months for a heart bypass or 6 months for a cat scan or to see a radiologist. There is no use to complain, no one is listening. It's a great system if you have to go get your blood pressure checked or a prescription updated. If you have to get a blood test then it typically involves a trip to the hospital and at least half a day's effort considering the wait, etc.. But fortunately you only do that stuff once every few years. If you have to get something major done then that's usually when the complaining starts. Having said that, someone who is severely ill like who needs a heart or lung transplant may take years to get it done. But the weeks spent in hospital hooked to machines to keep them alive while they wait won't have to be paid entirely out of their pocket. The system will keep them alive and it won't bankrupt them. Those with life threatening illness get priority while those who can survive while waiting on bed rest will have to wait. Most people who use the system are old and retired - getting prescriptions updated. They have all day and can afford to wait in the waiting room. They don't complain.

As for my health care in the US, I have PPO. My wife has went to the doctor a few times. I have went one time. We are healthy people. From my experience, comparing US health care with that experienced by my relatives in Canada, it's like comparing (USA) flying first class versus (Canada) traveling by train. It takes a lot longer to get there by train and the ride is only a little less comfortable. The train appears to be cheaper because it's paid for by the "collective". But who cares, as long as you only have to travel once every few years.

Many provinces in Canada have a limit on the funds they provide for the health care system. It's essentially just another non-profit gov't run system, like the post office. Hospitals are always crying for money. That's their excuse for providing limited (rationed) care. It's common for nurses unions to go on strike once every few years. I recall a few years ago the Doctors and their union went on strike in one province. Veternarians are not run by the gov't. They operate for profit. Canadians pay thousands of dollars for their pets to get operations. Some even purchase optional medical insurance for their pets. Pets get treated like royalty and get their operations within the week.

Most of the Canadians living in the US love their health care here. They moved here because they felt taxed to death in Canada. Here income tax is lower, sales tax is lower, and so are alcohol and gasoline. Here you can also claim mortgage interest and property tax against your income tax return - you can't in Canada. That's probably one of the reasons why houses are cheaper in Canada.

I know of many Canadians who live in the USA for employment and financial reasons, and don't want to move back in order to get back their "free" health care. I don't know of any Americans who moved to Canada so they could pay higher taxes and get "free" health care. Not one.

Also - many Canadian doctors move to the USA for financial reasons. American doctors don't move to Canada. Canada has a doctor shortage in many places, especially in clinics or hospitals in rural communities. Canada has to import doctors from places like South Africa, those often seeking refuge or want to live in a better place. It's a luxary to get a doctor who speeks english as their first language or who is from your city or province.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:24:03 GMT

Democracy for Breakfast:

[(Is it ironic that it doesn't seem like he got any support from Doctors?)

It would be easy enough to find individuals that could compare the two. Some one third of Canadian doctors practice in the U.S.

The medical associations tend to constantly promote a cartelization scheme that would make things worse. The CMA pays lip service to the the non-exclusivity of the Canadian system whilst surreptitiously injecting their own nefarious plot to install a gatekeeper system; you couldn't see a chiropractor, for example, without being referred by an M.D. Probably the reason they support Moore is because they have secretly lobbied in the backroom for the mandatory "insurance", which obviously would increase their incomes. Even as the President of the CMA runs an illegal clinic (according to Stossel's "Sick in America") the official position of the CMA is to shill for the status quo. They would crack a piggy bank on your head to get a penny inside.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Novus Zarathustra — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:54:17 GMT

poppies:

You're effectively asking for an explanation of the aggregate psychology of a mass of individuals, which many Austrians would deride as a useless pursuit (see methodological individualism). To the degree that any such mass psychological evaluation is possible or useful, I would guess that "Canadians" tend to have a greater psychological need for differentiation from the U.S. than do the "British" or the "French". I imagine cracks about being "America's hat" get old fast.

Since the U.S. is commonly labeled as having a "private" health care system (ha ha!), perhaps it's psychologically fulfilling to cultivate an image of an enlightened, caring, modern society which betters its massively influential neighbor to the south in at least this field. Accordingly, it could be that Canadians are more deeply culturally invested than most countries in their UHC system and have blocks against accepting any arguments against it.

I've heard quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that this is beginning to change and Canadians are more openly critiquing their system.

Its just, people tend to base their opinion on the Canadian system based on what ONE Canadian says. I have a friend who likes the Canadian health care system, and just that one person can convince a whole MASS of people that the Canadian system is good.

I mean look at Michael Moore's fucking 'Sicko'! That one staged scene where he talks to the Canadian in the golf cart makes it seem like Canada's health care is awesome. This is an example of how just one person can convince a whole populace. Michael Moore got support from the AMA, and the RNA association after the film. (Is it ironic that it doesn't seem like he got any support from Doctors?)

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Marko — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:01:00 GMT

The same reason Americans like their military.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:44:16 GMT

poppies:

Accordingly, it could be that Canadians are more deeply culturally invested than most countries in their UHC system and have blocks against accepting any arguments against it.

I don't think many people care that much. There is no talk about health care outside of election campaigns, which in Canada is about 2 weeks. Except the CBC, but eulogizing anything communist leaning is normal for CBC.

poppies:

I've heard quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that this is beginning to change and Canadians are more openly critiquing their system.

Canadians are a gutless and obedient lot and that is not going to change. Criticizing the status quo in any form is rare. In the U.S. the candidate that promises the most change gets elected. In Canada the candidate that promises the least change gets elected.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:14:35 GMT

Most people outside of Canada seem to have no idea that there is no national health system like in the UK. The provinces all have their own and each one is different.

It is not the system that people support. People who actually have high need of health service are mad, especially the elderly. It is the generic concept that is pulverized into our heads as school children, the fiction of everyone being cared for.

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Hard Rain — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:49:37 GMT

"The problem with socialism is that, eventually, you run out of other people's money" - Margaret Thatcher

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

Kakugo — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:30:16 GMT

Very simple: it's free. Have you ever passed in front of a stand handing out free samples of anything: sausages, cheese, biscuits, whatever? People will literally come to blows to get more or pass in front of the line to get their sample. If allowed many will stuff their pockets with samples to take home even if they don't like cheese. Why? Because it's free. They don't care somebody paid for the food they are grabbing with their little greedy hands as a publicity act or as brand promotion. It's free: get as much as you can.

When I go to my doctor to get a prescription for my aching joints and muscles there scores of old persons lining up for very minor complaints. They could just walk into a chemist's and get an over the counter remedy like everybody else but they bother a doctor. Why? Because here people over 65 will get everything health related for free, provided they can produce a doctor's recipe. They want as much free bonanza as they can have, may be more. Often the doctor tries to turn people away "you don't need anything, I would love to get at 80 in your shape". But they insists so he prescribes a mild analgesic, an aspirin or whatever. The old coot is as happy as he/she can be: free drugs, hooray!

But somebody has to pay: the drugs, the highly specialized medic running a test, the sophisticated diagnostic equipment don't come cheap. But, hey, health care is a right so who cares? And we the system goes broke we can always "tax the rich" (more often than not "rich people" equates to "the middle class"). Then one day money will run out and what will happen?

Re: Why do Canadians like their health care system?

shazam — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:11:20 GMT

First off, I wouldn't say that such sentiment is limited to Canadians. My British great-uncle seems to love the NHS despite the fact that they have obviously been delaying his hip surgery for years. As for the reason for such illogical support for socialist health care, I think it stems from people not knowing anything different. Like a child who has never had ice cream before, they do not know what they are missing.