Economics Questions

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:20:53 GMT

Pablo:
Use your vastly superior knowledge

I do. You need to learn that your aesthetics aren't mine. Stephen needs to learn that as well.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:19:19 GMT

Stephen:
Ownership is an action, and actions are not performed by groups.

Yet groups are simply a bunch of individuals, and if you deny that a bunch of individuals can own something together, you are denying reality! Sports teams. Corporations. Buildings. You are denying reality, Stephen.

Further, Holcombe makes a very good case for paths being "owned in common" by those who travel them each day and contribute to the maintenance of them. I suppose you could call it unowned, but since no one person could simply arbitrarily state that the path is his or hers and keep everyone else out (as no one person has homesteaded it), it is essentially a common property. The group of individuals which created it can keep others off, but not those within the group. At least not unless one person makes a significant effort, such as using his or her money to pave the path or whatever.

You may not like it, Stephen, but at least consider it. Just flying off the handle as you did really shows poor form.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

wilderness — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:13:36 GMT

Pablo:

Use your vastly superior knowledge to come to the conclusion that people react kindly to people who show them respect, and negatively to those who do not. If you ever intend to impart your massive intellect on us mere mortals, then your being rude is negatively impacting your goal. I hope you come to understand that your action is irrational according to your goal (if indeed it is your goal). If your being on these forums is to simply demonstrate to us all how radically intelligent you are, there are forums with much less intelligent people. Perhaps you will have more luck at some of those celebrity gossip forums.

Why are you being so rude?

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

wilderness — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:11:36 GMT

Pablo:

All it achieves is to making yourself seem pompous, arrogant, and rude.

getting Ad hominem?

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

wilderness — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:09:18 GMT

Stephen:

You obviously don't understand the point about methodological individualism, how it applies to ownership, or why Long and Holcombe are wrong. What you've made clear is that you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

Stephen, why are you so rude?

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Pablo — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 07:56:55 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Perhaps in the future you will choose your words much more carefully. Do I make myself clear?
Pablo:
Why do you speak to others with such a condescending tone?
Because I can. Because I really am that smart. Because sometimes a person is so wrong and so bloody-minded about being so wrong that they could use a bit of wind taken from his or her sails.

Ok.

Use your vastly superior knowledge to come to the conclusion that people react kindly to people who show them respect, and negatively to those who do not. If you ever intend to impart your massive intellect on us mere mortals, then your being rude is negatively impacting your goal. I hope you come to understand that your action is irrational according to your goal (if indeed it is your goal). If your being on these forums is to simply demonstrate to us all how radically intelligent you are, there are forums with much less intelligent people. Perhaps you will have more luck at some of those celebrity gossip forums.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Stephen — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 06:23:48 GMT

Ownership is an action, and actions are not performed by groups. Methodological individualism 101.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:48:53 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Perhaps in the future you will choose your words much more carefully. Do I make myself clear?

Pablo:
Why do you speak to others with such a condescending tone?

Because I can. Because I really am that smart. Because sometimes a person is so wrong and so bloody-minded about being so wrong that they could use a bit of wind taken from his or her sails.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:46:15 GMT

Stephen:
You obviously don't understand the point about methodological individualism, how it applies to ownership, or why Long and Holcombe are wrong.

Except that I do. Now then: pouting because you made a phrasing mistake is not what I would call conducive to discourse. Now then, I was actually present when Holcombe presented his paper at the ASC. It made me think. To deny all common property would seem to be a bit of a stretch. And to deny that a group of individuals can own something--as your phrasing indicated--well...that's just flat-wrong.

I trust we'll have no more pouting from you?

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Pablo — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:41:59 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Perhaps in the future you will choose your words much more carefully. Do I make myself clear?

Why do you speak to others with such a condescending tone? We are all like minded people here. There is no need for that kind of negative catalyst. All it achieves is to making yourself seem pompous, arrogant, and rude.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Stephen — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:21:37 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

Stephen:
Yeah, but praxeologically, ownership is individual. Groups can't own property. It violates methodological individualism.
Knight_of_BAAWA:
A group of individuals can own property. Surely you wouldn't deny that, for denial would fly in the face of reality.
Stephen:
If I own a plot of land and my neighbour owns an adjacent plot of land, then we commonly own both plots of land, right?
You said a group cannot own anything, yet clearly a group of individual can, given that non-stock corporations can have multiple people listed as owners, as well as many sports teams have multiple people listed as owners. Reality, it seems, is not what you phrased it to be. Perhaps in the future you will choose your words much more carefully. Do I make myself clear?

You obviously don't understand the point about methodological individualism, how it applies to ownership, or why Long and Holcombe are wrong. What you've made clear is that you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Sage — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:18:38 GMT

Stephen:
I haven't read both of Long's works. I don't think it's worth the time. I'm pretty sure that for praxeological reasons, property is always individually owned. Only individuals can have possession and control over economic goods (i.e. property). Describing property as commonly owned, and meaning other than an aggregate of individual ownership, entails a holistic fallacy.

Long addresses something like this argument:

"One common libertarian objection to public property—and particularly, public ownership of land—is that the whole idea makes no sense: a resource cannot be collectively owned unless every part of the resource admits of simultaneous use by all members of the collective..."

Go ahead, look in the telescope.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Samarami — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:02:47 GMT

The best source of reading that I know of describing joint ownership of anything is Harry Brown's "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World".

Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/kramer4.html

I think it was copyrighted around 1973, was out of print for a time, and I understand it is back in print. I also think a free PDF download might be somewhere on the web but I don't know where.

Joint ownership is fine, but know the hazards (disagreements, fraud on the part of one or more partners, etc. etc.) before you sign.

Samarami

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Marko — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:51:26 GMT

Stephen:

The fancy word is 'contract'.

Good call. That must indeed be it.

Just as long we understand that there can be an unwritten, tradition-based contract.

Re: Can't communal property work within a free market system?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:51:01 GMT

Stephen:
Yeah, but praxeologically, ownership is individual. Groups can't own property. It violates methodological individualism.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
A group of individuals can own property. Surely you wouldn't deny that, for denial would fly in the face of reality.

Stephen:
If I own a plot of land and my neighbour owns an adjacent plot of land, then we commonly own both plots of land, right?

You said a group cannot own anything, yet clearly a group of individual can, given that non-stock corporations can have multiple people listed as owners, as well as many sports teams have multiple people listed as owners. Reality, it seems, is not what you phrased it to be. Perhaps in the future you will choose your words much more carefully. Do I make myself clear?