Economics Questions

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

pentahedron — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:31:14 GMT

Thanks Grayson for that I enjoyed reading that. My heart jumped with joy the other day when I read the Conservative-Dem coalition in the UK is going to try and decentralize the healthcare system.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Jon Irenicus — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 07:47:33 GMT

I've read Mises and his calculation theory, but I don't think thats the way to go in trying to debunk socialized healthcare system. IMO

It is with regards to its alleged efficiency.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 04:53:53 GMT

"I've read Mises and his calculation theory, but I don't think thats the way to go in trying to debunk socialized healthcare system. IMO"

Lack of economic calculation does not plague only socialist states. It plagues any segment of society in which resources need to be allocated, and in which there are either no product prices or no factor prices. If health care were socialized, the world over, there would be no market prices for health services. Without any future market prices for various health services to anticipate, neither hospitals, nor the government, would have anything from which to subtract the present prices of factors of production. Therefore, they have no recourse to economic calculation, which means that states of, and shifts in, consumer wants, as expressed by their actions, have no way of influencing the shape of production.

Should Option 1 be pursued? Which means: should quantity A of doctor type 1, B of doctor type 2, and C of doctor type 3 be hired? And quantity D of medical machine 1, and E of medical machine 2, and F of medical machine 3 be purchased? (And repeat this for millions more factors of production).

Or should option 2 be pursued? Which means, quantity C of doctor type 1 be hired, quantity C of doctor type 2 be hired, and quantity D of doctor type 3. And quantity F of medical machine 1, and E of m.m. 2, and D of m.m. 3. (And repeat this for millions more factors of production).

Or option 3, or 4, or options 5 through a billion?

Which arrangement would best suit consumer wants? Without market prices for health care services, there is no way of knowing. The result? Massive shortages of some services, and massive gluts of others.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 04:07:39 GMT

I'm refering to the socialist calculation problem as the reason you can't make international comparisons based on spending.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

pentahedron — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 04:00:18 GMT

I've read Mises and his calculation theory, but I don't think thats the way to go in trying to debunk socialized healthcare system. IMO

And yeah I looked at the WHO. They stopped trying to measure a contries healthcare since there isn't a objectivable way to do it.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:23:57 GMT

Unfortunately, there is no good way to compare health systems in the fashion of comparing prices. In a system without prices you get the socialist calculation problem, where politicians are arbtrarily deciding the total amount that should be spent on it. Whatever arguments you are engaged in regarding unit costs must not reference anything beyond the U.S border.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:05:12 GMT

Caley, don't antagonize newbies.

I didn't mean to be as cheeky as it seemed..

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

pentahedron — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:01:30 GMT

Thank you Grayson. Paul talked about that a little his Revolution: A Manifesto and I brought it up earlier.

I came across this that I need to look over later

http://mises.org/daily/3613

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:58:41 GMT

I wasn't accusing you using opposing talking points. It's just that you might not be as hyperskeptical as I am. I once read a whole World Health Report and found that it was both totally biased and being wrongly referenced. The opposition always uses the fallacy of comparing total spending divided by population and equating this to a price comparison.

When I ran in the last provincial election I did an all-candidates meeting at a retirement home. One guy from the audience walked up to the mic and broke down crying after saying that he had cancer and there was no provision from OHIP for treatment (and there is no such thing as a private health sector here). A 20 year old student will swear that Canada (or whatever European state he is from) has the best health care in the world, except Cuba.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:40:29 GMT

"the way insurance is supposed to work."

This is a good post about why having a system of insurance for day-to-day health care doesn't make sense in the first place.

"You just gobble up every bit a baloney someone feeds you?"

Caley, don't antagonize newbies.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

pentahedron — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:21:24 GMT

The system of healthcare in Europe is less expensive than the one in America, but often the quality here is a lot better. When I had to research it I found that a lot of the times the waiting times to see specialists could be up to a month compared to around 2-3 weeks here, their hospitals sometimes weren't in great shape depending on where you were at, it's done on an emergency basis, and theres a doctor shortage from controlled doctor wages. Despite that Europeans still seem to love it and would prefer their system over ours. I would just want to know if by decentralizing ours we could make ours more efficient than what we have and less costly.

And I hope I didn't come across as being rude earlier, it's just that I sometimes get "oh you're just repeating libertarian talking points" and it's my first day here and I get a "you're repeating commie talking points" which I wasn't expecting.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:52:47 GMT

If you aren't going to help me with my answer then please don't post in my topic please anymore.

You have to realize that you can't get anywhere starting from the assumptions you are making. I should have just said that instead posing it as a question.

The people living in those countries are healthy and not dying because of their system.

If you believe something like this you don't have anything to argue about with someone who supports that system. It raises the question of why you would be against it.

There was a sticky thread on health care.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

pentahedron — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:27:04 GMT

Thanks Alex

And no Clayton I wasn't arguing for centralizing healthcare. I was asking you of your opinion on how healthcare costs could go down via making it attractive enough to encourage those who wouldn't but it to get it to contribute to the pool, the way insurance is supposed to work.

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Clayton — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:09:28 GMT

Well, reducing restrictions on interstate sale of healthcare would certainly be a good idea but the cure (Federal intervention) is worse than the disease (braindead state regulations).

I guess my view of the healthcare debate is that getting into the percentages and numbers is a losing argument because you've already granted from the outset that it is possible, through debate and discussion, to determine a "best state of affairs" which is exactly central-planning. You lose. Then it's just a debate over which state of centrally-planned affairs is the best or ideal. The free market is a more thorough-going rejection of this point of view. The problem is that the whole argument assumes that we can determine society-wide priorities when, in fact, we cannot. Everyone values things differently. Universalization imposes values onto people that they may or may not have. If you value healthcare more than other things, then UHC is a subsidy of your valuations. If you value a lot of other things more than healthcare, then UHC is an imposition of a high valuation for healthcare onto you.

Clayton -

Re: Can someone give me a robust argument in favor of free market healthcare

Alex Habighorst — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:01:56 GMT

I know Mises put this together a while back, hope it helps.