Economics Questions

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

spkrman — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:46:03 GMT

What an absurd, illogical piece of drivel this article is, I had to comment on the page myself.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

MacFall — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:06:35 GMT

dreamingoffreedominma:

. . .

On top of it being voluntary and the fact that one may gain more from working there over some place else still doesn't seem to do it for the emotional liberal type. I wish there was some other thing I could say to them.

It's funny how they only understand force.

Yeah, hilarious.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

dreamingoffreedominma — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:24:24 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
dreamingoffreedominma:
That is the argument I have heard so its tough because it makes me (and therefore libertarianism in general) look like an eltist position.

Approving of sweatshops (the voluntary kind) isn't exclusive to libertarianism. Unless I'm mistaken, even Krugman approves.

Also, I think it is important to understand that the vast majority of opposition to sweatshops comes from westerners. I'm not sure why most people don't find it odd that the people who actually work in sweatshops, don't oppose them neither actively or passively by not working in one. Could it be because they gain more from working there than somewhere else?

The whole sweatshop thing is silly. I saw an ad once on it. It had some kid stitching together a soccer ball, while other kids were playing soccer outside. A less than subtle false dichotomy to tuck at a few heartstrings, which is all that any argument against voluntary sweatshops is.

It makes sense to me, but I am usually not the one probing the question too much. On top of it being voluntary and the fact that one may gain more from working there over some place else still doesn't seem to do it for the emotional liberal type. I wish there was some other thing I could say to them.

It's funny how they only understand force.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

Libertas est Veritas — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:57:17 GMT

dreamingoffreedominma:
That is the argument I have heard so its tough because it makes me (and therefore libertarianism in general) look like an eltist position.

Approving of sweatshops (the voluntary kind) isn't exclusive to libertarianism. Unless I'm mistaken, even Krugman approves.

Also, I think it is important to understand that the vast majority of opposition to sweatshops comes from westerners. I'm not sure why most people don't find it odd that the people who actually work in sweatshops, don't oppose them neither actively or passively by not working in one. Could it be because they gain more from working there than somewhere else?

The whole sweatshop thing is silly. I saw an ad once on it. It had some kid stitching together a soccer ball, while other kids were playing soccer outside. A less than subtle false dichotomy to tuck at a few heartstrings, which is all that any argument against voluntary sweatshops is.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

dreamingoffreedominma — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:30:21 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
dreamingoffreedominma:
Would you mind elaborating a little more on that position so that I get a better understanding of the meaning of your quote?

For example, you mentioned sweatshops. Now, if we are talking about slave labor, that is another matter all together, but I see nothing wrong with sweatshops themselves. Or child labor, as another example. I remember being called a vulgar libertarian at one point due to my defense of child labor (not here), which I think is absolutely asinine.

I do tolerate and find it accurate sometimes, but rather rarely. I mean, if you are going to defend modern oil corporations without referencing the problems of government subsidies and regulations - at least if they affect whatever aspect you are defending - then your analysis is simply wrong. There is need for a term like 'vulgar libertarianism' at this point, as merely pointing out the mistake is sufficient. Calling it vulgar libertarian just makes it sound more of a value decision than a logical fallacy, at least in my mind.

I understand what you are saying.

It seems to me like it depends on the political stripes of the person you are talking to. If I mention sweath shops are okay to a "liberal" that's the end of the converstation because they are going to have no more, even if I show them that people would have a choice to work their (ie they wouldn't be slaves), they could save up money and "move up the ladder" of society.

Their argument (and I am just saying it because I have heard it before) would be why wouldn't everyone engage in that type of labor. And what would prevent big businesses with no morals from using this type of labor that makes having any smaller business worthwhile if you can't have prices to undercut that large firm and compete with them?

That is the argument I have heard so its tough because it makes me (and therefore libertarianism in general) look like an eltist position. What are your thoughts.

Thanks for the answer by the way.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

Libertas est Veritas — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:55:34 GMT

dreamingoffreedominma:
Would you mind elaborating a little more on that position so that I get a better understanding of the meaning of your quote?

For example, you mentioned sweatshops. Now, if we are talking about slave labor, that is another matter all together, but I see nothing wrong with sweatshops themselves. Or child labor, as another example. I remember being called a vulgar libertarian at one point due to my defense of child labor (not here), which I think is absolutely asinine.

I do tolerate and find it accurate sometimes, but rather rarely. I mean, if you are going to defend modern oil corporations without referencing the problems of government subsidies and regulations - at least if they affect whatever aspect you are defending - then your analysis is simply wrong. There is need for a term like 'vulgar libertarianism' at this point, as merely pointing out the mistake is sufficient. Calling it vulgar libertarian just makes it sound more of a value decision than a logical fallacy, at least in my mind.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

dreamingoffreedominma — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:12:27 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
dreamingoffreedominma:
vulgar libertarianism

While I agree with the intent of it, we obviously can't isolate ourselves intellectually and keep repeating "it is not a 100% free market situation, therefore I won't touch it". That will see libertarianism go the way of Marxism.

Good point. But if current day economics were distorted by government (and I believe that is very much the case), wouldn't it make sense to want to show individuals that a truly free market would not replace government with big business because that would be just as "unfair" as the present situation?

I guess I have a soft spot for "social justice" and want to provide people who share similar views a theory on how that would be applied in a free market. IDK, maybe my reasoning is incorrect.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on that position so that I get a better understanding of the meaning of your quote?

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

MacFall — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:27:05 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
dreamingoffreedominma:
vulgar libertarianism

I understand and appreciate the intent of the concept. But I can't say I'm a fan of the methods by which it is often applied. It is turning into a logical fallacy, where people assume they can just throw the concept at a problem and not have to deal with current day economics. While I agree with the intent of it, we obviously can't isolate ourselves intellectually and keep repeating "it is not a 100% free market situation, therefore I won't touch it". That will see libertarianism go the way of Marxism.

Libertarianism won't go the way of Marxism because Marxism is fiction. Libertarianism will eventually win because the market is the natural state of things, even if it happens by no other means than good ol' natural selection and takes a long, long time. Unless the statists kill everyone, which I don't see as (very) likely.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

scineram — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:47:37 GMT

1 simple reason the free market can work: it does.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

Libertas est Veritas — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:57:21 GMT

dreamingoffreedominma:
vulgar libertarianism

I understand and appreciate the intent of the concept. But I can't say I'm a fan of the methods by which it is often applied. It is turning into a logical fallacy, where people assume they can just throw the concept at a problem and not have to deal with current day economics. While I agree with the intent of it, we obviously can't isolate ourselves intellectually and keep repeating "it is not a 100% free market situation, therefore I won't touch it". That will see libertarianism go the way of Marxism.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

dreamingoffreedominma — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:42:19 GMT

This sort of makes me think about a recent term I came across, whose definition was defined by Kevin Carson: vulgar libertarianism.

The idea, to quote Per Bylund, is that of libertarians "who mistakenly identify the current state regulated market as a “free market” and that therefore apply free market logic in defending e.g. sweatshops in Southeast Asia."

I am not saying that I have seen that on this forum, but it sounds like the contacts or discussions that this writer has encountered are a result of libertarians attempting to defend the current unfree market using free market logic. It makes sense why one would be opposed to this, as I surely am.

It could be that or the guy is just making strawmen arguments and has no idea what he is talking about.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

Libertas est Veritas — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 06:55:06 GMT

Jon Irenicus:
I swear, socialists are getting dumber by the day.

I have to agree, even though I on principle try not to put anyone down without hearing their case. I've been suspecting that I am becoming less open to other views, but the more I study Austrian economics and the more I look at depth at the issues, the more silly the vast majority of statist arguments seem. I use to entertain and even hold to some of the biggest statist arguments, mainly due to the overwhelming cultural weight behind them. But these days I can't even fathom how one arrives at most of these conclusions. I'd like to be able to keep an open mind, but when most arguments against free markets are outright fallacies or normative nonsense, it is getting difficult.

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

krazy kaju — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:39:50 GMT

This guy can't even spell his own name correctly. It's "Kevin."

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:30:23 GMT

What an amateur! I swear, socialists are getting dumber by the day.

-Jon

Re: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work?

nje5019 — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:27:19 GMT

For the market to efficiently distribute wealth and resources, everyone has to be able to “bid,” that is, offer money for goods and services, or offer their good and services (including their labour) for money. If everyone can bid as they choose, environmentally-concerned individuals can offer to pay more for environmentally friendly goods. In this way, the market will reflect the concerns of all people. The only problem is, this is bullshit. The ability of children to bid is seriously limited, and people who haven’t been born yet obviously can’t bid. Thus, future generations are subject to the despotic hegemony of the present.

That made me laugh.