Economics Questions

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Jeremiah Dyke — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 00:32:34 GMT

Brainpolice had a good post on this, i'll try to dig it up

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Bogart — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:22:52 GMT

The quote needs ammended to: all trades absent FORCE or fraud..

The parties in a voluntary trade may be under some amount of force or coersion. For example a person would forgo buying a TV at Walmart if they could buy the same television via Amazon if they did not have to pay sales taxes.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:11:55 GMT

I hear that, but when you try to convert people, you have to be almost perfect.

I always point out that the people coming to you tend to be the missionaries. Missionaries are there to convert, not to be converted. You have to choose who you talk to rather than let them choose you. Anyone seriously inquiring will not be like that.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

DD5 — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:10:56 GMT

John Breig:

I hear that, but when you try to convert people, you have to be almost perfect. I need enough puty to plug all of these holes in their brain.

Very true. You are expected to be able to explain the function of every component out of the millions of components comprising a car, in order to convince people to drive it. And you are also expected to know how each part works and be articulate enough to explain it, instantly on demand! Otherwise, they will say: Aha! you see, it won't work.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

z1235 — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:55:05 GMT

A trade is inter-subjective action. An a posteriori win after a fraud-less (and voluntary) trade can only be as certain as an a posteriori win after any voluntary action. This is simply the state of nature, and it's as good as it gets. Any potential argument against free (voluntary) trade -- and in favor of coercion and regulation -- would also be an argument against free (voluntary) action, in general.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

liberty student — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:50:52 GMT

Dont convert. Undermine bad ideas. People come around on their own when you can undermine a bad core belief system.

The sort of people you can "convert" or mind control, turn out like some of our left-libertarian friends. They never understood ancap intimiately, so they can easily reject it on the most superficial and nonsensical grounds without suffering a crisis of reason.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Pilky01 — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:38:20 GMT

I hear that, but when you try to convert people, you have to be almost perfect. I need enough puty to plug all of these holes in their brain.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:36:11 GMT

I would be more worried about 6 billion people being defrauded out of little to everything by politicians and activists than someone buying a pet rock.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

mikachusetts — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:06:34 GMT

Mises:
However, one must not forget that the scale of values or wants manifests itself only in the reality of action. These scales have no independent existence apart from the actual behavior of individuals. The only source from which our knowledge concerning these scales is derived is the observation of a man's actions. Every action is always in perfect agreement with the scale of values or wants because these scales are nothing but an instrument for the interpretation of a man's acting.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Sonik — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:32:40 GMT

I'm pretty sure nobody was frauded when they bought their pet rock.

When one of the sales pitches are 'you dont have to clean up after it!' - you can assume its not a regular pet.

The 'pet rock salesman' only represents a very, very niche market - not fraud.

If it wasnt midly successfull as a product (i.e: people want it), then we wouldnt be talking about it now, right? If its something people want - as valueless as it may be to us - and someone is willing to provide it - who's loosing?

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Mises Pieces — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:29:35 GMT

ex ante, yes

Value is subjective. If someone buys a pet rock, it means that they believed, prior to the transaction, that they would gain more utility from owning the pet rock than from owning either the cash they paid for it or the next best thing they could have spent the cash on at the time. Otherwise, they would not have made that particular transaction. A 3rd party observer cannot scientifically refute this since he cannot view the value scales of the individuals making the transaction.

Re: Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

liberty student — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:21:32 GMT

Busy bodies and leftists will argue that you cannot and should not be allowed to make your own choices, because you might make the "wrong" ones.

Wrong in an aesthetic (which they conflate with moral) sense. You see, it is your value system which is wrong, and you acting peacefully within a "wrong" system makes you "bad".

Ignore these fools and charlatans. Their weapon is guilt and their motives are dangerous.

Are All Trades absent of fraud win-win?

Pilky01 — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:09:23 GMT

I hear this stated time and time again and repeat it to skeptics. They often come up with crazy examples like pet rock salesman and junk like that. Can someone help me find a good paper on this or just give me a rock solid explanation?

Sorry to bug you all for a source again. It's these simple things I just can't seem to find articulated.

Best Regards,

John Breig