Economics Questions

Re: But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

Anenome — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 09:47:45 GMT

It would be pretty damn nice to have the 19th century's massive economic growth, deflation (rather than inflation), etc., and the laissez-faire economy that created all the wealth we take for granted now, but with today's technology.

In any case, the fallacy is that a mixed economy such as we have now is the only way to go, and going to laissez-faire would harm people. What's in the way is a commitment to social-collectivism, whereas a laissez-faire economy is a rejection of collectivism.

It was the 19th century that brought collectivism into the mainstream. So, no, it wouldn't be like the 19th century, it would be fixing the damage the 19th century caused, damaged that played out in the 20th.

Anyone with a conscious or subconscious commitment to collectivism and statism will continue to be horrified on a visceral level by any suggestion of rugged individualism or laissez-faire. They are incapable of thinking rationally about it.

Re: But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

Aristippus — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 00:11:52 GMT

The people you are talking to are simply incorrect. The average man of 1900 was vastly wealthier than the average man of all earlier time periods, and had a much longer life expectancy. What had changed? Simply the greater degree of capital accumulation, which allowed greater productivity and production. But capital accumulation - even in an environment most conducive to this accumulation - takes time. If the desired institutional arrangements of the turn of the 20th century remained in place throughout the latter century, man would be vastly wealthier than he is today. Such a conclusion can only be arrived at through an understanding of theory. If your friends truly wish to understand the situation, they must have this theoretical basis, rather than throwing around random Nirvana fallacy assertions.

Also, people did not abandon liberalism for interventionism and socialism because the latter are superior systems in regards to the creation of wealth. They did so because they were ignoramuses and were fooled by the promises of governments and utopian propagandists.

Re: But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

Wheylous — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 23:15:14 GMT

Here is my standard list of readings:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/pa1a2/well_i_have_officially_made_it/c3ow93i

No, Ron Paul would not bring America back to the days of the Industrial Revolution. I will clarify even more later.

Re: But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

cloneof — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 23:06:09 GMT

Oh, I thought that the fact that 19th century man's life was that bad meant that hi's fathers in the age of manorialism had lived a better life.

But what you will find is that during the times that we are disussing, there was a very large population growth. Could the policies revolving around manorialism have sustained such an vast increase of population?. Indeed, only with a more free market place could opportunities arise (with the increased accumulation of capitol) where such increases of population could be sustained.

In my mind I find the situation of the ordinary man in the 19th almost an miracle. For the very first time there had been an amazing growth in population that didn't immediately involve an amazing famine. We need to remember that the Industrial Revolution was preceded by an agricultural revolution in the Unidet Kingdom. That boom of population goes on this day.

Re: But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

_AnCap_ — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 22:38:20 GMT

That doesn't really answer the question. You can find serfs in every corner of the world today where these nets don't exist. A serf is a serf.

Saying a person is happy because now he only has cancer as opposed to cancer and a flu is no more to the point....

Re: But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

cloneof — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 22:32:00 GMT

So serfs of the 11th century had it better then the industrial worker the 19th century? Please tell me more about this time of lords and ladies :).

But Libertarianism Doesn't Work - Remember the 19th Century!

_AnCap_ — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 22:27:13 GMT

A lot of people investigate solutions to our complex economic and social problems we're faced with today and lean towards Libertarianism more so than in the past where features and policies of socialism and bigger government looked to be the answer. I'm constantly told even with casual conversation among close friends that Ron Paul would bring civilization back to Victorian or Edwardian times - a time of great poverty, of businessmen abusing physically and emotionally their employees at the thought of unions etc, a time of great illiteracy, a time of widespread disease, death and destruction for simple medication was unaffordable.

These horrors are very evident and hard to comprehend. The Liberal Party (in a Classical sense) ruled Britain in the early 1900's in which the population of Britain had great contempt for - if this ideology was so good, then why hasn't it transpired into the goldmine Libertarians promise? I am new to the Austrian School and although most people I know agree with human freedom, historical background cannot be ignored.

Can anyone recommond a good book or article that puts these concerns to bed so that I may have an arsenal in my debate box for future reference. More specifically - why would retreating back to the policies of the 19th and 20th century yield a different result in the modern world?