Economics Questions

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Neodoxy — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 22:39:35 GMT

Some might get the wrong idea about you quoting a passage which seems to state that because something is natural that it is positive.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Consumariat — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 22:38:35 GMT

I define "weak" as someone who's useless to society. The chronically ill are useless.

You don't get to define anything. That's the point.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Buzz Killington — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 22:30:15 GMT

As soon as someone promotes something purely because it is "natural" is when you know that their a crank. Think about what you are doing right at this very instant. Is that natural? Really?

Conflict and knowledge seeking is certainly instinctual. Anyways, I never promoted Darwinism because it's natural, good point, the "empathy is natural" argument is fallacious.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Buzz Killington — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 22:28:34 GMT

Nope. I'm saying that evolution has bugger all to do with how 'strong' or 'weak' you are. Natural selection works on the basis of adaptibility, not some arbitrary interpretation of what Buzz Killington percieves to be 'frail'. If some of us have worked out how to convince society into giving us free healthcare, well that seems a pretty successful adaptation. Not that I really believe any of this pseudo-darwinist claptrap, I'm just applying your own logic in a more informed manner.

I define "weak" as someone who's useless to society. The chronically ill are useless.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Neodoxy — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 20:32:42 GMT

As soon as someone promotes something purely because it is "natural" is when you know that their a crank. Think about what you are doing right at this very instant. Is that natural? Really?

I've only seen one real naturalist on this website, and it's not you Buzz, it's that guy who wanted to go and live out in the woods.

I like the fact that people can live to an old age. Life, cooperation, and achievements are my most central values. This is just as unnatural as the fact that my mother didn't die in childbirth thanks to modern medical technology and most likely that I haven't died of a disease by now.

If you don't think that life itself is a central value to ALL living things then you are a fool.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Phi est aureum — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 19:56:26 GMT

People weren't commanded to kill disrespectful sons or stone adulterers for Christ's sake. Christ had not yet existed. :)

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Consumariat — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 19:49:54 GMT

Maladapted to survive? So you're admitting that subsidizing the weak and frail will lead to civilization's death?

Nope. I'm saying that evolution has bugger all to do with how 'strong' or 'weak' you are. Natural selection works on the basis of adaptibility, not some arbitrary interpretation of what Buzz Killington percieves to be 'frail'. If some of us have worked out how to convince society into giving us free healthcare, well that seems a pretty successful adaptation. Not that I really believe any of this pseudo-darwinist claptrap, I'm just applying your own logic in a more informed manner.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Buzz Killington — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:57:58 GMT

So, what you're saying is that in the last 1500-2000 years, humans have evolved new traits for, say, blindness, deafness, paraplegia, epilepsy, etc. etc.? These traits evolved de novo in the last 1500 years or so?? Forget history at this point, where is the science that shows this is even possible?? It's like claiming we could evolve wings sometime in the next 1500 years.

No, I'm saying that in the last 1500-2000 years we've adopted values completely contrary to how we've lived on Earth for most of our history. We didn't have chemo in our hunter gatherer days. Hell, look in the Old Testament - it commanded people to kill their disrespectful sons and stone adulterers for Christ's sake.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Buzz Killington — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:33 GMT

Random thoughts:

1. I wonder how OP will feel about all this when he gets weak and frail. Many people love the Might is Right philosophies when they have some might, but beg pathetically for mercy when they lose it.

O rlly? How many social darwinists have you known throughout their old age?

2. The idea that "Nature loathes Infirm Ones" is a huge mistake, for several reasons:

First, Nature loves the productive. Even weak and frail and infirm people can be productive, thanks to division of labor.

And how's that?

Second, all creatures are born weak and frail and infirm. With some species, no mercy is shown them by anyone and they have to rely on sheer luck to survive. With other species, one or both of the parents feel protective to their offspring. With humans, these protective feelings to the infirm extend in some people to family, in other people to friends as well, and with saintly people to the whole human race and beyond.

The idea that people are naturally humanists is absurd.

3. There is a difference between the "Austrolibertarian capitalist" and the people who want govt handing out healthcare. The former believe an individual has the right to do as he wishes with his money. This includes taking care of himself if he is weak and frail and infirm. Modern medicine and life extension came into being to meet the demands of individuals who were willing to pay for them. The OP is imposing his value judgements on all of humanity, thinking that it is "absolutely disgusting" that people want these things. Very odd of him to think everyone should want what he wants.

Hilarious that you criticize me for this right before saying:

"Austrolibertarian capitalists" think it is bad both from a moral and an economic point of view to take money away from anyone for any reason,

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Clayton — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:16 GMT

It's entirely a product of Judaeo-Christian values and society bastardizing empathy

So, what you're saying is that in the last 1500-2000 years, humans have evolved new traits for, say, blindness, deafness, paraplegia, epilepsy, etc. etc.? These traits evolved de novo in the last 1500 years or so?? Forget history at this point, where is the science that shows this is even possible?? It's like claiming we could evolve wings sometime in the next 1500 years.

Clayton -

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Buzz Killington — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:46:57 GMT

If you're such an ubermensch yourself then you should be able to stop the "weak and frail" from getting free healthcare in the first place. The fact you can't indicates to me that you are maladapted to survive in the modern environment. Under your own logic I guess you would have to admit your own genetic inferiority.

Maladapted to survive? So you're admitting that subsidizing the weak and frail will lead to civilization's death?

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Buzz Killington — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:45:27 GMT

What gibberish. How were these genes still present in the gene pool if they had not been coddled in the past?

They weren't. It's entirely a product of Judaeo-Christian values and society bastardizing empathy

I don't understand why you guys come on these forums and try to bait Social Darwinism. Austrian social science has no relationship with Social Darwinism.

That's why I posted this. ;)

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

gotlucky — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 17:47:33 GMT

+1 Wheylous

But seriously, there are some excellent responses to this absurd position.

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Wheylous — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 17:30:29 GMT

Re: Mindless Lip-Service to Capitalism

Consumariat — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 14:38:28 GMT

The whole reason people want government handing out healthcare is that these technologies allow the weak and frail to continue their pathetic existences.

If you're such an ubermensch yourself then you should be able to stop the "weak and frail" from getting free healthcare in the first place. The fact you can't indicates to me that you are maladapted to survive in the modern environment. Under your own logic I guess you would have to admit your own genetic inferiority.

Under natural conditions, there is no haven for the wretched, no hope for the weaklings, no resting place for the weary, no quarter for the beaten. Nature loathes Infirm Ones

Humans are part of nature. We are under natural conditions.