History

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Arvin — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:07:46 GMT

ivanfoofoo:

I just don't agree with her views on aesthetics, or sex. She also breaks with methodogical individualism when she states that the USA can morally attack oppressive states. Besides that, she was a great thinker.

I agree, there's some other issues I do not agree with her on aswell. Also, her explanations are kinda misleading sometimes, "if man wants to live on earth" for example. I do not see how people on this forum can say that she's totally wrong though, since Rothbard's ethics are similar and much of what she said is a part of modern Austro-libertarianism.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

ivanfoofoo — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:34:41 GMT

I just don't agree with her views on aesthetics, or sex. She also breaks with methodogical individualism when she states that the USA can morally attack oppressive states. Besides that, she was a great thinker.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

ladyattis — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:19:51 GMT

Being that I consider myself a post-Objectivist, I do agree that many of the mouth pieces that hold legal ownership of Rand's legacy have become dogmatic in the extreme. To which makes it hard for folks to digest what Rand really meant by her words. In many ways, after taking a listen to half of Mises' Human Action, I find myself thinking that not only was Rand a Rationalist influenced heavily by Aristotle, but that Mises' own words and hers on issues of epistemology (and human action itself) mirror the same conclusions. But the key difference here is that Mises really finishes up where Rand simply starts off (in ITOE). So, I don't see the real issue with Rand or her philosophy (if it could be called one these days). If Giles wants to bitch, let the old coger bitch. I'm not his nurse.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Jose — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:57:58 GMT

There is indeed a God in Tolkiens universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eru_Il%C3%BAvatar

The wizards and more powerful beings are pretty similar to angels in their being, differing ranks, and functions.

I'm honestly not familiar enough with explicitly catholic dogma to give extensive commentary of catholic themes within the LOTR but parts of the Silmarrilion most notably could be shown as metaphor for the fall of lucifer (in Melkor) who became Satan (who became Morgoth).

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Jacob Bloom — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:47:26 GMT

I like a lot of what Ayn Rand says but I still think Objectivism is...too strong. That being said, Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are two of my favorite books.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

KruZer — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:37:32 GMT

I think there would be appeal in here justifications, or creation, of the morality of the capitalist sytem. I think far too many Objectivists are warmongers and the current owner of the Rand estate (i.e. Leonard Peikoff) is pretty much takes a Neoconservative stance on foreign policy issues.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

marquise — Sat, 23 May 2009 23:18:20 GMT

GilesStratton:
One is too many, in all seriousness, there's a fair few around here with some objectivist influences.

Hmmm....would one less make you step down from your throne.....?

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

marquise — Sat, 23 May 2009 23:13:11 GMT

I am not an objectivist, but I do like Ayn Rand.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Brainpolice — Sat, 23 May 2009 18:58:17 GMT

Some things that genuinely appeal to me about objectivism:

1. It (at least seeks) to correct the error in traditional moral philosophy of categorically separating morality from self-interest.

2. I believe that Rand's critique of mainstream libertarianism actually has some merit - the movement is muddled and confused, lacking any comprehensive and sound underlying philosophy.

3. Despite her apparent hatred of libertarians, her influence on modern American libertarianism is undeniable.

4. Her critique of deontology is illuminating; altough Neitzsche could have told you more or less the same thing in a different way.

5. Like all thick forms of libertarianism, Objectivism involves a more systematic and broad palette of values than just the NAP and property rights.

6. I share her views on the moral-practical dichotomy.

Some things that I dislike about objectivism:

1. As someone mentioned already, it's a closed system, perhaps with the exception of David Kelly's version and a variety of "objectivish" or "post-objectivist" philosophers.

2. Objectivism has always involved a quirky implied psychology and many objectivists in my experience are horrible armchair psychologizers.

3. I think that her attempt to get around the is-ought issue is insufficient.

4. As a political philosophy, it has no real opposition to centralization built into it - I've had Objectivists tell me that they would not principally oppose a global government if it was an objectivist one.

5. Hardline Objectivists of the Piekoff variety are worse than your average neocon on foreign policy issues. They also rabidly support IP.

6. When they debate against anarchism, Objectivists tend to fall back on fairly predictable statist dogmas that contradicts other elements of their own political philosophy.

7. I've always considered Rand's views on aesthetics to be bonkers.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 23 May 2009 18:40:44 GMT

It is but one must keep in mind how strongly much of its mythos is influenced by norse mythology.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 23 May 2009 16:05:23 GMT

is it pagan? is it christian? is there a common ground?

http://www.pocm.info/

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

laminustacitus — Sat, 23 May 2009 15:57:22 GMT

Juan:
laminustacitus:
...his Catholicism dicates the themes.
I fail to see how ? Tolkien's fictional world strikes me as clearly pagan. There's no god but several god-like powers none of which really has the upper hand. Which Roman Catholic themes do you think the LOTR deals with ?

Catholic themes include the theme of sacrifice, that evil can only dement and destroy what has already been created good, and the fact that the elves' state of melancholy, and exile is a direct result of their rebellion against the court of Valar in order to pursue Morgoth into Middle Earth.

Even Tolkien referred to them as "fundamentaly religious, and Catholic."

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Harry Felker — Sat, 23 May 2009 15:33:24 GMT

Can you link it? I would like to read it, I do like Objectivism on a few points and have read some of Rand's work, the problem I find many have with Rand's work is rooted basically in the sentiment that you display here (likely unintentionally), "I read this and now I am at odds."

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Saiphes — Sat, 23 May 2009 14:49:57 GMT

Juan:
laminustacitus:
...his Catholicism dicates the themes.
I fail to see how ? Tolkien's fictional world strikes me as clearly pagan. There's no god but several god-like powers none of which really has the upper hand. Which Roman Catholic themes do you think the LOTR deals with ?

Christians are permitted to use metaphor too.

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2003/12/03/tolkien_lewis/index.html

Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia were both strongly metaphorical to the Christian theme. Or, maybe the christian theme and other literature share the fundamental building blocks of good plot development.

Re: Objectivism: What's the appeal?

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 23 May 2009 10:54:02 GMT

The actual problem of Objectivism is that it is a closed system when it, like any other philosophy, should be an open and growing one. I personally am much closer to David Kelley's brand of Neo-objectivism. Their cultish factionalism is also an issue, as is their inconsistency in sticking to their own principles. I don't think there's much wrong with the philosophy itself. And as for Rand's fiction, I like it - if others don't, that's their problem. I'd recommend people read Sciabarra's book on Rand if they want to have a vociferous opinion on her, to comprehend the depth of her thought, rather than just casually dismiss her as a hack.