History

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Andrew Cain — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:35:55 GMT

Wolves of Paris:
How is this legitimacy determined?

In obtaining property, there is Lockean homesteading principles. In exchange of property, voluntary non-aggressive trade.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Wolves of Paris — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 22:20:48 GMT

Laughing Man:

Stranger:
Capitalism is not dependent on the state if the state is capitalistic. That would be an impossible redundancy.

Well the state doesn't legitimately own anything. And capitalism is based on private property, therefore the state is not in any manner capitalistic.

How is this legitimacy determined?

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Wolves of Paris — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 22:17:46 GMT

Absolutely not. The founding fathers were aristocratic statesmen that started a revolution in response to taxation. Those very same "revolutionaries" crushed farmer uprising and taxed the population of the new United States to death.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 20:27:39 GMT

its like this Stranger, at least this is how i see it.

talking of commons, is only talking of use, its a very mutualist notion. it completely dodges the issue of its ownership, of its propertyhood.

I can own something privately, and give people permission to exploit it, in that case i socialised their costs, and i can expect them to muck it up. i have only myself to blame that i turned my private propery into a commons. i.e something that is used in common. it is not owned in common.

now if you comes along and say, "i enjoy exploiting this, but i dont want others to exploit it, im going to homestead it, hey everybody, this is mine now."

and i say, "no you can't do that, you are forbidden to homestead it."

either

1) i am correct that you cannot and the reason is that i own it, and i therefore have a right to stop you from owning it

2) I am incorrect that cannot homestead it. my assertion was hot air. i have no right in the matter of whether you can homestead it or not, how could i? , unless I owned the property in question

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Stranger — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 20:15:48 GMT

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 20:13:49 GMT

the only scenario under which a property is not able to be homesteaded is if it has already been homesteaded. in all your examples it is evident that this is the case. and he who insists that others might use the property and yet not come to homestead it, is at least asserting his prior ownership to the property. whether this be true or false. perhaps someone else homesteded it, or no one homesteaded it, and the claimant that holds it cant be homesteaded is merely wrong, i.e. incorrect. if he is not wrong, and he is correct that it can;'t be homesteaded, the reason must be that it already is owned.

anyone claiming that some property can not be homesteaded does so with no logical force, if they concurrently deny their own ownership of the property, they are in so doing insisting on its virgin, unownedness, its ripeness for homesteading. it would be a contradiction to have unowned property that was a candidate for property hood, that was unownable by arbitrary decree....

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Stranger — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 20:06:19 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

so they are appropriating parts of it within their power. and this is highlighted by their insistence that no other party be excluded from 'using' the property they have appropriated. hence they did appropriate. you seem to have agreed with me.

I am only restating the principle that in a commons it is in everyone's best interest to appropriate and remove as much of the resources as possible before others do so, because the commons themselves cannot be appropriated.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 19:48:15 GMT

so they are appropriating parts of it within their power. and this is highlighted by their insistence that no other party be excluded from 'using' the property they have appropriated. hence they did appropriate. you seem to have agreed with me.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Stranger — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 19:42:23 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

Stranger:
They can forbid you to appropriate without having themselves the right to appropriate.

only if they want to be ridiculous. (anyhow, technically they did appropriate it, or else they could not claim to determine its proper use, i.e. that whatever passer by can exploit it without claiming exclusive rights to a portion of it)

Appropriation does not mean the right to exploit but the right to deny exploitation. Clearly someone can, for example, exploit the atmosphere by expelling pollutants without being able to deny you the same. Someone can fish the oceans without being able to deny other fishing fleets the same. That doesn't mean they are appropriating the capital, only that they are appropriating parts of it within their power.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 19:36:37 GMT

Stranger:
They can forbid you to appropriate without having themselves the right to appropriate.

only if they want to be ridiculous. (anyhow, technically they did appropriate it, or else they could not claim to determine its proper use, i.e. that whatever passer by can exploit it without claiming exclusive rights to a portion of it)

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Stranger — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:21:08 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

in reality any commons you come across where it is forbidden to homestead, is defacto owned by whoever is forbidding the homesteading. it is their property, and the tragedy is their fault....

They can forbid you to appropriate without having themselves the right to appropriate.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Angurse — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 17:26:07 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
are these tribes without heriarchies?, or tribes where the chieftain is the defacto owner of this property that 'the tribe' owns ?

Generally, the chief was the de facto owner, there might be some exceptions though.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

wilderness — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 17:25:30 GMT

see it's this "commons" thrown in there by Stranger that makes me wonder if you are actually talking about a civil society. The continual use of state will only cloud what's being said at this point in which reason will need to do a lot of patching up with continual holes noted for more unnecessary patch work if a more clear concept was used to begin with in avoidance of such long reasoning that the longer it tends to be, the more room for error increases, as the government works - committees overseeing committees with the governmental need to have another committee over see those committees and eventually another... you, Stranger, might get the point.

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 17:23:28 GMT

in reality any commons you come across where it is forbidden to homestead, is defacto owned by whoever is forbidding the homesteading. it is their property, and the tragedy is their fault....

Re: Did the founding fathers believe in anarchy?

Stranger — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 17:21:02 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

stranger, im shocked to hear you say those things?

is all state property communal propoerty. can a citizen pick a tank from the local army base to drive off in? can he decide what time of night he will stay in the public library? I wonder if you think citizens each own an equal portion of all state property equal to 1/300million-th size? that would be absurd also . the fact of the matter is that you cant sell you portion. i.e. you dont own your portion.

The same is true of any commons, whether it is a state or a fishery. Everyone will seek to exploit it maximally until it has been fully consumed, and those who will be most successful at this exploitation will be those who were most powerful - there is no reason to expect equal distribution of exploitation.