History

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Natalie — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:10:10 GMT

Lilburne:
I'm not saying America is any better than Athens. I just think Long's depiction of the liberality of Athens is misleading, given that he doesn't even mention its war-mongering or its practice of enslavement (except for a brief reference to the minimalism of the slave-based police force).

Wars and enslavement were commonplace in Ancient World so it would be unrealistic to expect Athenians to be much better in this respect. Besides, were they really more war-mongering than, say, Sparta with its militaristic cult? I think Long chose to focus instead on the differences between free citizens' situation direct democracy in Athens and mixed constitution republics such as Rome which many ancient philosophers (including Athenians) advocated for. He's trying to prove that Athenians found a better balance between different classes and interest groups and checked the growth of state by dispersing and limited its power.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

liberty student — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:04:40 GMT

Natalie:
Nevertheless, I think Athens and other examples of limited governments throughout history can be useful in arguments with statists. It proves that society can function without public police force or that public education doesn't produce Aristotles.

I'll buy that.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Natalie — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:50:38 GMT

liberty student:
I am fearful of government. They are illegitimate, even if it is a democracy. So while the Athenians may have had a workable democracy for a time, there still must have been people who did not want to abide by it, or to pay for it, but were pressured to do so. I find it hard to believe that *everyone* paid taxes, and that those who did, all wanted to.

I agree with, even though a gram of state tyranny is relatively better than a tonn, it's still worse than zero :) Nevertheless, I think Athens and other examples of limited governments throughout history can be useful in arguments with statists. It proves that society can function without public police force or that public education doesn't produce Aristotles.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:09:44 GMT

I'm not saying America is any better than Athens. I just think Long's depiction of the liberality of Athens is misleading, given that he doesn't even mention its war-mongering or its practice of enslavement (except for a brief reference to the minimalism of the slave-based police force).

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Natalie — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:47:15 GMT

Lilburne:
It's a shame this "liberal" democracy never managed to overthrow its 30 thousand tyrants and restore the personal liberties of its hundreds of thousands of slaves.

It's too bad 300 million Americans can't overthrow the government and restore their personal liberty. Oh wait, we don't even have a concept of personal liberties, only entitlements

No one is portraying Athens as a kind of a libertarian paradise. The question is in the degree of the government intervention and people's reactions to them.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:16:28 GMT

Natalie:

Athenians at least managed to overthrow the 30 tyrants and restore their personal liberties on their own.

It's a shame this "liberal" democracy never managed to overthrow its 30 thousand tyrants and restore the personal liberties of its hundreds of thousands of slaves.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

liberty student — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:15:21 GMT

Natalie:
Any government is capable of turning into empire.

That is the lesson here. I think left anarchists believe that some democracy or some governance is ok if they are in control. Sorta like how they don't like a woman working in a subservient role to a man for profit, but if she delegates her authority to a man via democracy that is valid. It's all somewhat arbitrary.

I am fearful of government. They are illegitimate, even if it is a democracy. So while the Athenians may have had a workable democracy for a time, there still must have been people who did not want to abide by it, or to pay for it, but were pressured to do so. I find it hard to believe that *everyone* paid taxes, and that those who did, all wanted to.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Natalie — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:06:30 GMT

Any government is capable of turning into empire. Athenians at least managed to overthrow the 30 tyrants and restore their personal liberties on their own.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

Daniel James Sanchez — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:51:54 GMT

Athenian democracy ultimately empowered the war-mongering demagogue Pericles to lead Athens into becoming a rapacious empire over the Delian "League" and then into a suicidal 27-year war with nearly all parts of the Hellenic world that did not recognize its overlordship. I'm at work, so I don't have time to read the article; but based on a search for the terms "Pericles" and "Peloponnesian War" in the piece, it seems that Long fails to mention this hole in the "liberal Athenian democracy" thesis.

Re: Athenian democratic republic

liberty student — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:19:36 GMT

Natalie:
I wonder though how were the taxes collected if there wasn't anyone to force the citizens to actually pay them? Were they all so civic minded to pay their taxes voluntarily?

As I understood it, the people who overpayed, were individually responsible for collecting taxes from the peers who had not paid. I assume social pressure was applied where someone didn't quickly fulfill their civic duty.

Interesting article. I'll have to read it a few more times. Thanks.

Athenian democratic republic

Natalie — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:09:42 GMT

This is an interesting piece by Roderick Long. It seems Athenian version of direct democracy was more able to prevent the growth of the centralized power than representative democracies favored today. I think major key to success was privatization of law enforcement which made it impossible for any of the politicians to have a standing army at their disposal to use against other citizens.

I wonder though how were the taxes collected if there wasn't anyone to force the citizens to actually pay them? Were they all so civic minded to pay their taxes voluntarily?