History

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Live_Free_Or_Die — Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:00:25 GMT

Is not the point of Christianity to become a servant of Jesus?

Is not Jesus the master and no servant is greater than the master?

Is the Bible littered with parables about the actions of individuals where the moral is often about the faith of an individual?

While an environment absent coercion might be viewed as ideal for purposes of individuals being free to become a servant of Jesus, I can assure you it is irrelevant. People will always be free to become servants of Jesus regardless of any form of government. A sheep does not need to live in market anarchy in order to find the shephard.

There can be only one motivation for advocating free markets.... self interest. Is this not the reason humans act... to pursue their own self satisfaction?

Advocating any form of government is selfishness in action. Government is institutionalized revenge.

As much as I would like to convince myself selfish endeavors such as maximizing constraint of revenge to a consensual basis is morally good, I am reminded the good servant does not concern themself with such matters as the servant has been instructed to work hard, serve well, love, and pray.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

AOman97 — Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:56:23 GMT

i very much agree on this !

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

William — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 09:46:43 GMT

GilesStratton:

So a Christian posts a question asking whether or not his beliefs are compatible with anarchism, and most people can only answer that his beliefs are "wrong" or whatever.

Good job guys, wouldn't want those intolerant Christians getting any false ideas.

As for the notion that the threat of organized religion to a free society is on par with that of Marxism, I think you're going to have to support some grandidose claims with both some sort of theory and empirical evidence. I don't think it's entirely false to say that communism collectivism of all forms comes from not realizing the limitations to mans reason, which is certainly not something theists can be accused of. Hayek certainly thought so anyway.

I second this. Don't you people get bored tilting at the same windmills again and again? It was a question by a Xtian to Xtians... honestly.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Solid_Choke — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:39:24 GMT

Juan:
If you will kindly take a second look at my argument you will find that not once did I "invoke God" in any of my premises.
True, my post was sloppily composed . My first sentence was addressed at you - the second one was not - but that wasn't clear - my mistake.

No problem.

Juan:

My point was that if an argument uses biblical stuff as a premise, then the argument is bogus, but even if it doesn't, a premise like your P2 is wrong. Governments can always claim that what they do is not really stealing, it's, well, taxing =P

I would agree that using biblical stuff as a premise in an argument is almost always bogus, but it definitely isn't bogus when you are arguing about whether or not something is "biblical".

Libertyandlife:

I don't know about Christianity, but I have heard of Christian anarchists a lot, and there are plenty of Christian libertarians. I wonder if any of it faith based. I feel like my libertarian beliefs parralel my islamic beliefs, I know a free market libertarian muslim who's beliefs match austrian ideals, but says he gets it mostly from religious belief and experience. I'd say Islam embraces not forcing religion upon others, the idea of free will, markets and is against government.

Here's a free market libertarian site by Muslims: http://www.minaret.org/

Welcome to the struggle. Don't let the atheists or Christians tell you that you don't belong here. We need all the help we can get.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Libertyandlife — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 02:03:46 GMT

I don't know about Christianity, but I have heard of Christian anarchists a lot, and there are plenty of Christian libertarians. I wonder if any of it faith based. I feel like my libertarian beliefs parralel my islamic beliefs, I know a free market libertarian muslim who's beliefs match austrian ideals, but says he gets it mostly from religious belief and experience. I'd say Islam embraces not forcing religion upon others, the idea of free will, markets and is against government.

Here's a free market libertarian site by Muslims: http://www.minaret.org/

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Juan — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:54:08 GMT

If you will kindly take a second look at my argument you will find that not once did I "invoke God" in any of my premises.

True, my post was sloppily composed . My first sentence was addressed at you - the second one was not - but that wasn't clear - my mistake.

My point was that if an argument uses biblical stuff as a premise, then the argument is bogus, but even if it doesn't, a premise like your P2 is wrong. Governments can always claim that what they do is not really stealing, it's, well, taxing =P

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Solid_Choke — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:19:40 GMT

Juan:
P1: Thou shalt not steal. (Eighth Commandment)

P2: Taking something that belongs to someone else without their consent is stealing.
Your stuff is not really your stuff since property is what the government says it is. Your second premise is not right - when the government taxes you, government employees are getting what it 'rightfully' belongs to them.

And for any mortal who invokes 'god' when making an argument, I'd like to know how you get your knowledge about god. Organized religion is a show run by some humans to cheat and control other humans - nothing 'godly' or supernatural about it.

If you will kindly take a second look at my argument you will find that not once did I "invoke God" in any of my premises. The original question was "is anarchy really biblical?". I provided an argument using a rule found in the Bible to show that a justification for anarchy can be found if you look hard enough. No doubt I can do the same with the Iliad or the Koran. If you are right about my second premise, then my argument fails, but in no way did I make an appeal to God anywhere in my argument.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

E. R. Olovetto — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 15:26:23 GMT

Read history of medieval Iceland. Their legal system is very similar to one we would want to have. The catholic church undermined the system by taking tithes and the chieftains who had churches were able to avoid their own costs. This consolidated power into the hands of a few. The violence that arose made people welcome the relative stability of succumbing to rule by the king of Denmark.

I am sure one can think of many more instances of religion leading to government atrocity...

SRS? is an abbreviation of serious? Walter Block is one of my favorite scholars and I liked that picture. It reminds me of the ORLY owl.

BTW, I don't consider myself an atheist. I think socialist ideology is a bigger threat right now, but they must be similar in our libertarian future.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 15:03:30 GMT

can you explain how atheism threatens a free society?

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Seph — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:56:04 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

Seph:
If you want to dismiss those who voluntarily subject themselves to the authority of the Catholic church as lunatics, you have every right to do so. But to say that those who choose to do so are acting as destructively on society as the ideas of Socialism are, is obviously absurd.

we were talking about threats to free societies.

ok?

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:32:29 GMT

Seph:
If you want to dismiss those who voluntarily subject themselves to the authority of the Catholic church as lunatics, you have every right to do so. But to say that those who choose to do so are acting as destructively on society as the ideas of Socialism are, is obviously absurd.

we were talking about threats to free societies.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Seph — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:20:20 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

the real issue is that whenever atheists kill for ideological reasons, it is not their atheism playing the motive force, 'i killed him because he wasnt an atheist', the 'no-god told me to do it' , 'the non-leader of my non-religious sect told me they where the enemy',

When people are murdered simply because they refuse to renounce religion (a bit of a soft spot for me, as some of my family were killed for this very reason in the USSR) I think its a bit naive to deny that atheism played no part at all in the murder.

nirgrahamUK:
rather the atheists kill for nation

And the nation state specifically tells them to kill all those who public advocate any religion. No difference.

But at the same time, Im not about to suggest atheists deserve any less repsect than me, or that they are murderers, or that advocating atheism is equally as destructive as advocating Marxism, anymore than I would blame Austrian economics if you chose to murder someone because you claimed Mises' ghost told you to.

If you want to dismiss those who voluntarily subject themselves to the authority of the Catholic church as lunatics, you have every right to do so. But to say that those who choose to do so are acting as destructively on society as the ideas of Socialism are, is obviously absurd.

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:02:50 GMT

the real issue is that whenever atheists kill for ideological reasons, it is not their atheism playing the motive force, 'i killed him because he wasnt an atheist', the 'no-god told me to do it' , 'the non-leader of my non-religious sect told me they where the enemy', rather the atheists kill for nation, or marxist ideology or fascist ideology or whatever other ideology that whilst perhaps compatible with their atheism, is not their atheism. but the motive ideology

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Seph — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 13:32:12 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

Seph:

nirgrahamUK:

Seph:

E. R. Olovetto:
Organized religion's threat to a free society is on par with Marxist mythology.

One doesn't have to be religious, to realize the insanity of that statement....

the crusades weren't a walk in the park....

Nor was it for Christians in the Soviet Union.

Christians have persecuted atheists, Atheist have persecuted Christians, Muslims have persecuted Christians....and so on.

lol, now you are making Olovetto's point for him!

No, I didnt.

In any case, I could easily have stated any other number of places and you know it; way to completely dodge the real issue

Re: Is anarchy really biblical? I hope there are some Christians here that can answer...

Andrew Cain — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 12:53:06 GMT

GilesStratton:
So a Christian posts a question asking whether or not his beliefs are compatible with anarchism, and most people can only answer that his beliefs are "wrong" or whatever.

I don't really see him asking whether his beliefs are compatible with anarchism. I think he is stating that anarchy is a fight against order [ which is false ] and seems to imply that the Austrian school is some pagan school of economics because Aleister Crowley was in the same century and because there is a six sided star on the coat of arms.