History

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Marko — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:24:38 GMT

Telpeurion:

I also would like to say that if you need arbitrary morality concepts such as "natural law" to justify your actions then you might have, at least what I think of as a weak personal foundation. You are responsible for your thoughts/morals, and actions. I wouldn't appeal to god to back me up just as I wouldn't appeal to "other people do it" as a justification. I want to be free, and I want others to be free too. In addition, I want the highest satisfaction I can think of in my material possessions without harming others. Those are the ends I seek, the question is what are the means? I think Austrian theory has the means correct. That doesn't make me superior in any objective sense than a person who wants to kill everyone else on the planet. I deplore that person, but how can I fault them for doing what they feel like, isn't that what I do? Laws only matter if you have people willing to abide by them.

I really do wonder what is with the oft observed correlation between preference based morality and feeling of superiority.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Telpeurion — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 06:46:55 GMT

I don't know why a number of you are saying that socialism is opposed to religion, true if you are going by the Marxist/Leninist creed. But the vast majority of communal orders in history have been organized by religious groups and orders. Name one sect or branch of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoisim, etc. etc. that hasn't at one time approved of or stood by the economic principles of socialism (Public ownership of the means of production, goods held in common, and so on)

I also would like to say that if you need arbitrary morality concepts such as "natural law" to justify your actions then you might have, at least what I think of as a weak personal foundation. You are responsible for your thoughts/morals, and actions. I wouldn't appeal to god to back me up just as I wouldn't appeal to "other people do it" as a justification. I want to be free, and I want others to be free too. In addition, I want the highest satisfaction I can think of in my material possessions without harming others. Those are the ends I seek, the question is what are the means? I think Austrian theory has the means correct. That doesn't make me superior in any objective sense than a person who wants to kill everyone else on the planet. I deplore that person, but how can I fault them for doing what they feel like, isn't that what I do? Laws only matter if you have people willing to abide by them.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Marko — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 05:11:10 GMT

Laughing Man:

Marko:
Engels was the biggest culprit: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/engels.html

Thank you for the information, this will help me develop my knowledge of Marxism.

To be fair Engels while uncharacteristically enthusiastic about it is largely simply chanelling the widespread attitudes of Germans/Westerners of the time. Von Mises too was not beneath beneath talking about "the hordes of Russian barbarians".

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 23:25:36 GMT

Laughing Man:
Is this the Bob you speak of?

No! I speak of the Most High Epopt, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs:

(Bob's image is a trademark or registered trademark or something like that of the Chuch of the Subgenius) PRABOB

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Andrew Cain — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 23:11:22 GMT

Esuric:
FALSE PROPHET.

Death therapy is a proven method!

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Esuric — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:42:52 GMT

Laughing Man:

Knight_of_BAAWA:
I still say that you all need to PRAISE BOB or burn in slacklessness trying not to

Is this the Bob you speak of?

FALSE PROPHET.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Juan — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:36:45 GMT

can a non-proselytizing religion be considered a totalitarian world-view striving for mental slavery?

A non-proselytizing revealed religion can't exist, by definition. Revealed religion is just lies that some people use to deceive other people. If the deceivers stopped lying, the sect would die out.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Andrew Cain — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:29:39 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
I still say that you all need to PRAISE BOB or burn in slacklessness trying not to

Is this the Bob you speak of?

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:23:47 GMT

I say that you should live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:08:17 GMT

I still say that you all need to PRAISE BOB or burn in slacklessness trying not to. For it is only through J.R. "Bob" Dobbs that the True Slack is revealed--which is why liberals and Marxists hate it.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:51:52 GMT

can a non-proselytizing religion be considered a totalitarian world-view striving for mental slavery?

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Juan — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:50:20 GMT

To answer the original question : marxists and other lefties hate revealed religion because marxism and similar creeds are revealed religions in competition with established revealed religions.

Marxism, christianity, judaism, islam, etc are all totalitarian worldviews striving for mental slavery.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Andrew Cain — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:43:50 GMT

Marko:
Engels was the biggest culprit: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/engels.html

Thank you for the information, this will help me develop my knowledge of Marxism.

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

Marko — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:26:08 GMT

Laughing Man:

Esuric:
Yes, because Marxists want to empower the poor. Marx openly calls for the extermination of what he calls "parasites," i.e., the poor, weak, and stupid (Polish, Serbs, Gypsies), along side the "rentiers" and arbitragers.

That is interesting, where did you pick that up? I am intrigued

Engels was the biggest culprit: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/engels.html

Re: Why Liberals and Marxists hate religion.

John Ess — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:00:38 GMT

Esuric:

John Ess:
Marxists hate religion because they see it as a means of keeping the powerless down and accepting of their fate in life.

Yes, because Marxists want to empower the poor. Marx openly calls for the extermination of what he calls "parasites," i.e., the poor, weak, and stupid (Polish, Serbs, Gypsies), along side the "rentiers" and arbitragers.

John Ess:
Liberals generally only hate Christianity, if they hate any religions. And that's because they think conservatives are Christian.

The "liberals" (socialists) hatred of religion predates American conservatism, the neocons/paleocons, supply-siders, ect. So this explanation has to be dismissed.

There's a reason why Liberals hold onto abstract philosophy and/or philosophies which deny the possibility of absolute truth, be it post-modernism, relativism, pragmatism, Hegel/Marx, or whatever is in fashion. They attack reason and truth (natural law and deduction) because the facts explode their arguments.

I don't think Marx is any better, mind you. This is simply their reasoning.

And I'm speaking about today's liberals. Or at least some of them. There really is no continuous meaning of "liberal"; so rooting it in historicism seems to be misguided. The further you go back, perhaps the more the term "liberal" agrees with us. And at the same time "libertarian" or "anarchist" may not be an agreeable term. Such is not just the nature of political thinking, but language itself.