History

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Caley McKibbin — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 03:03:53 GMT

"Central planning" is beneficial to industrialization. I take everything you have, force you to build factories with it, take 100% of your product minus enough to keep you alive to continue producing more factories. I sit back and sip whine whilst you "industrialize" for me. Also known as slavery.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Bogdan — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:39:36 GMT

Marko:

One of the causes of the WWI was that Germany wanted to fight and defeat Russia before Russia economicaly eclipsed Germany.

Really? New info for me. Very interesting to study that question.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Bogdan — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:37:35 GMT

Spideynw:

The German government actually signed a treaty with Russia to split up Eastern Europe.

It was in 1939 before WWII, not WWI.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Oraklet — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:14:35 GMT

I'm no expert on this, but as far as I know a better description would be that they contained elements of both feudalism and capitalism.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Spideynw — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:18:05 GMT

Cabal:

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm still relatively new to economic thought in general, as well as Austrian economics, but I do the best I can when engaging in this kind of discourse; there seems to be a lot of loathing for free-market economics (if not also libertarianism) out there for some reason. I understand that people tend to be passionate about their philosophical, economic and political beliefs--as I am--but for the most part, it seems like much of the opposition I run into leads to direct insults upon my intelligence (as opposed to productive debate) if only because of the values and schools of thought I ascribe to, regardless of what arguments, points or evidence I present to the contrary in such discourse.

Is this commonplace in your experience as well?

Yes. But I have found the Socratic method is really useful. Check out Jan Helfeld's channel on youtube for some good examples of how it works.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Cabal — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:47:23 GMT

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm still relatively new to economic thought in general, as well as Austrian economics, but I do the best I can when engaging in this kind of discourse; there seems to be a lot of loathing for free-market economics (if not also libertarianism) out there for some reason. I understand that people tend to be passionate about their philosophical, economic and political beliefs--as I am--but for the most part, it seems like much of the opposition I run into leads to direct insults upon my intelligence (as opposed to productive debate) if only because of the values and schools of thought I ascribe to, regardless of what arguments, points or evidence I present to the contrary in such discourse.

Is this commonplace in your experience as well?

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Andrew Cain — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:34:33 GMT

Marko:
The Kuomintang was in economic terms Socialists as well, but they were not strong enough to impose their system.

I wouldn't say they were socialists. More like democratic progressives. Sun Yet-sun was more of a moderate then Chiang Kai-shek

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Marko — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:30:39 GMT

He means serfdom. The Renaissance period was stil one marked by serfdom. France for example was in this sense feudal until 1789.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

fakename — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:14:37 GMT

krazy kaju:
Before becoming socialist, both Russia and China were feudalistic societies. They weren't capitalist at all.

What do you mean by feudal since china (i don't know about russia) developed at least to the renaissance period in terms of technology and business organization before europe did. Namely they had large workshops with hundreds of staff and produced more iron in absolute terms than britain did circa 1770. They also had the printing press in the 1000s.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Marko — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:43:21 GMT

In 1914 Germany bordered Russia. There was nothing to split up.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Spideynw — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:36:29 GMT

Marko:

Before the Communists China was a feudal society. The Kuomintang was in economic terms Socialists as well, but they were not strong enough to impose their system.

Russia was feudal until 1861. After this its economy was basicaly corporatist and it was experiencing solid growth. One of the causes of the WWI was that Germany wanted to fight and defeat Russia before Russia economicaly eclipsed Germany.

The German government actually signed a treaty with Russia to split up Eastern Europe.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Marko — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:05:18 GMT

Cabal:

As well, hasn't Russia made substantial improvement in their GDP and industry in recent years by way of conversion to a market economy after the fall of the Soviet Union?

Since the fall of the USSR Russia has had a corporatist economy. The difference is that in the 1990s it was a gangster state with private interests plundering the economy like a pinata, and now it is an impersonal state, with a strong buerocracy slapping the economy with interventionism. So far the buerocrats have proven better caretakers than the gangsters. It is probably a timeframe thing. The position of the burocrats is more assured so they are in a less of a hurry.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

Marko — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:49:06 GMT

Before the Communists China was a feudal society. The Kuomintang was in economic terms Socialists as well, but they were not strong enough to impose their system.

Russia was feudal until 1861. After this its economy was basicaly corporatist and it was experiencing solid growth. One of the causes of the WWI was that Germany wanted to fight and defeat Russia before Russia economicaly eclipsed Germany.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

krazy kaju — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:41:21 GMT

Before becoming socialist, both Russia and China were feudalistic societies. They weren't capitalist at all.

Re: Pre-Central Planning Economic History of Russia/China?

fakename — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:38:49 GMT

I'm now studying chinese history in college out of an old 1960s (but apparently magisterial) book by a guy named jacques genet. What I learned is that every time china enters a period of prosperity one can make a plausible, but still ambigous, case for free markets being the reason. So in the warring states period, which one can suppose was decentralized, the economy took off then the han and qin rode that prosperity out for a few centuries. Then in the song period of the middle ages the southern dynasty (and many of the preceeding southern dynasties) were (probably) very deregulated and later the mongols and ming used that market prosperity to fund their wars of conquest and empire.

The evidence for decentralization was that those dynasties that I cited were generally in a state of constant revolution and turmoil and it happens that in those periods it sometimes comes about that gov. weakens. The same thing perhaps happened to late middle-ages europe.

In my experience if a country is prosperous under central planning it must be because there was past free markets. It is apriori history but I think that it is one of the only really good and well established patterns in history.