History

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:45:11 GMT

Are those horns coming out of his head in the images?

If Naram-Sin is the first known god-king, what was it about Sargon that was intellectually revolutionary?

edit: Also. I made a mistake in which the rituals of Lake Nemi were incorporated into the Temple of Saturn. That is false. It is more closely associated with Vesta (and Temple thereof). But not excluded to Vesta as that is another goddess differing from Diana. I think what I'm getting at here is the lunar aspect of Diana as one aspect of her diety was moon goddess, which mythically has been associated with moon, bull, pig, serpent, and horse. Regicide or suttee's are associated, in one form or another, ie. sacrifice of an actual pig, bull, human, or symbolically. As the lunar waxes and wanes, the sun, ie. symbolic of eternal, of a differing mythos and usually if not always patriarchally oriented in which the dominate diety is not lunar or mother goddess but is of the sun or god. The god-king is still male in mother goddess cultures, but the mythos and rituals are different. So wondering if those are horns (bull symbol?) coming out of his head in those images might be saying something.

I don't know. I'm merely trying to think this through.

Re: Sargon

William — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:02:06 GMT

http://www.instonebrewer.com/bpg2009/Free/Pics/Naram.gif

http://www.djmisc.com/type/super_archives/naram_sin.jpg

That is a famous, interesting (but not an entirly a decent representativ, as this is a bit overdramatic) early example. It is a pic Naram-Sin (shortly after Sargon), elevated to the level of the gods. The headress he wears was reserved for gods until this engraving. This is the 1st known example of a king who claimed his own succesful divination. Before this the king was usually shown as pious and just doing the will divine will of the gods on earth. This is the 1st known God-King.

The king is in an elevated, action oriented position crushing his enemies and showing his overwhelming superiorty. This is one example of a style in general that starts a generation or two earlier (with Sargon) and continues on in Mesopotamia until Persia (?) (though usually a bit less dramaticaly as Naram-Sin, in the end, was not well recieved).

I'll try to be a bit more specific a bit later, and address your other points as well.

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:36:13 GMT

Nice tiddy post! I'm glad you cleared up some of the points.

I find the new intellectual trend of Sargon an interesting point. I would like to have reference, if possible, to a list (pictures or whatnot would be pleasing) of the art you mentioned to show this further.

a) Diana doesn't fit into the romulus myth. So your correct on not seeing that. What I was pointing out is the Romans in their expanison did not rid that pre-existing myth and to a point rituals that were carried out at Lake Nemi. In fact Mussolini had some work done at that lake to resurrect a ship that had been sunk there in an effort to show his roots go back to the Roman idea. The ship was sunk as part of a ritual that had been once carried out at the Lake in regards to the priest-king 'trial by combat'. So it wouldn't have been a part of the Romulus myth other than it's historical incorporation from a pre-Roman ritualization and then assimulated into the Roman mythology.

b) yes the main point was of Diana having a mother goddess inclination pre-Roman. For the Romans changed the older mother goddess domination to a patriarchal one during their time.

point b is probably not related and was brought up as a curiosity of mine that I admitted earlier that probably had nothing to do with Sargon but was looking for something that might have been there. But I don't think it is, so, we may move on from this point. The only lingering comment I would have is what did Sargon change? Was his effort a patriarchal domination that was in that particular region previous to him of a Mesopotamian mother goddess? I guess I'm wondering what he changed.

Re: Sargon

William — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:15:18 GMT

While I don't mind digressing from my main points to discuss what you wish, let me make sure we are on the same page because I think there may have been a communication breakdown

My Main Points; (for the sake of clarity, in parantheses I shall indicate with an L or W (for Lilburne or Wilderness), who the main point was initialy made to, though it shouldn't matter much as I tried to keep everything relative to point 1)

1) Sargon started new intellectual trends in the Near East (L)

2) Other Mesopotamian kings refered to Sargon as a new model for rule in Mesopotamia (L).

3) Sargon, so far as I can tell, had no major influence on the Nemian ritual you mentioned (W)

Here is how I am translating what you are giving to me:

1) You wished to find out if there were an links between the Nemian ritual and that of the intellectual changes Sargon had in Mesopotamia

2) In your most recent post:

a) priestly killings came from the remus myth: this seems somewhat plausable, except I can't think of how Diana fits with the romulus myth and actual "trial by combat" comes from Gaul or Germany

b) The main point, however, is the roots of Diana/ Artemis/ mother goddesses?

point B is where I am confused. Is this still in relation to Sargon, and the trends he may have inspired?

I don't mind discussing Diana or Artemis, I just want to make sure we are on the same page.

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 20:04:18 GMT

Dondoolee:
There is most likely no direct relation. Sargon is a couple millennium and a few thousand miles removed from the Latin traditions, and his ascension to power is somewhat murky (meaning it isn't exactly known how he became king). Besides that, I don't think the process by which Sargon became king started any ceremonial or mythological elements for the establishment of a Mesopotamian monarch, much less a Latin priest. If indeed the position of "rex nemorensis" was obtained by a "trial by combat", my initial guess would be the tradition came from Gaul or Germany.

Rex nemorensis was before the the rise of Rome, but I believe it was Romulus who killed Remus and then in the establishment of Rome's power and subsequent expanison Romulus knew of Lake Nemi's rituals and his advisors were of this religious order and remained so for centuries. I think eventually became incorporated into the Temple of Saturn. Take what I say here with hesitation as I'm not that knowledgeable on this topic, but my point was the equivalent of Diana is the Artemis of Greece. But I believe this goddess has roots in an earlier mother goddess time as well, as mythologies tend assimulate what was known earlier into new characteristics as the general human culture changes. Thus the old remains with a new twist to help define the myth of what is new. The Germans, correct if I'm wrong, had a stronger tie to mother goddess mythic matrix as they were not of the patriarchal Apollo or Jupiter motives of say Rome or Greek or Egypt or Babylon, etc... during their empires.

Re: Sargon

William — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:47:52 GMT

There is most likely no direct relation. Sargon is a couple millennium and a few thousand miles removed from the Latin traditions, and his ascension to power is somewhat murky (meaning it isn't exactly known how he became king). Besides that, I don't think the process by which Sargon became king started any ceremonial or mythological elements for the establishment of a Mesopotamian monarch, much less a Latin priest. If indeed the position of "rex nemorensis" was obtained by a "trial by combat", my initial guess would be the tradition came from Gaul or Germany.

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 11:21:59 GMT

Dondoolee,

Rex Nemorensis. "...the priesthood of Diana at Nemi was held by a person who obtained that honour by slaying the prior incumbent in a trial by combat, and who could remain at the post only so long as he successfully defended his position against all challengers. However, a successful candidate had first to test his mettle by plucking a golden bough from one of the trees in the sacred grove."

I was wondering if anything similar to this was going on with Sargon and thereafter in that region. Probably not but wondering if this stirs anything in your mind. Especially the underlined as the other parts would be a localized mythic take.

Re: Sargon

Daniel James Sanchez — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:34:17 GMT

Dondoolee:
nor can I make a direct comparison of Caligula and Sargon.

Well they both might have killed their predecessors. Caligula might have killed Tiberius in revenge for the latter possibly having Caligula's father, Germanicus, murdered. But of course that parallel can be made for countless monarchs.

Re: Sargon

William — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:29:17 GMT

wilderness:

Ok. thanks for the link.

Would Sargon be near in mythic imagery as that which happened at Lake Nemi, Italy with the priest-king (the overt killing of the priest-king was a ritual to the death) as discussed in Frazier's 'Golden Bough' by chance? Curious if there is a cultural connection.

I am afraid I don't quite understand the question. I am guessing "the golden bough" is a reference to "The Aenied" and Lake Nemi a reference to Caligula's immense war ship/ floating palace? In any case I can't make a connection, I would need you to further elaborate. While I am not helpless in the subject, roman myth isn't exactly my strong suite, nor can I make a direct comparison of Caligula and Sargon.

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 03:43:07 GMT

J. Grayson Lilburne:
In his book Ancient Iraq, Georges Roux, writes of that story:
"This is, at best, strongly fictionalized history, though we learn from more reliable sources that the man who was to call himself Sharru-kin, 'the righteous (or legitimate king', was of humble origin. The cup-bearer of Ur-Zabab, King of Kish, he managed - we do not know how - to overthrow his master and marched against Uruk, where reigned Lugalzagesi, then over-lord of Sumer."

The "more reliable sources" of which Roux speaks are copies found of inscriptions which date to Sargon's own time. The origin story you find in Wikipedia is from over a millenium and a half after Sargon died.

This has me thinking. Do you know when these "inscriptions (of) Sargon's own time" were found?

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 02:52:25 GMT

Dondoolee:
The Jewish traditions of pitting Nimrod against Abraham are interesting, but very late in Jewish mythological tradition

indeed

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 02:51:42 GMT

Ok. thanks for the link.

Would Sargon be near in mythic imagery as that which happened at Lake Nemi, Italy with the priest-king (the overt killing of the priest-king was a ritual to the death) as discussed in Frazier's 'Golden Bough' by chance? Curious if there is a cultural connection.

Re: Sargon

wilderness — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 02:42:09 GMT

J. Grayson Lilburne:
The "more reliable sources" of which Roux speaks are copies found of inscriptions which date to Sargon's own time. The origin story you find in Wikipedia is from over a millenium and a half after Sargon died.

Interesting. The story I quoted wasn't from wikipedia, to clarify, that was referred to by me only to show that the same birth place of Sargon is also noted in wiki. I take wiki, as a source, with a grain of salt. The source I orginally referred to did say it was a legend, as you say. The inscriptions dating of Sargon's own time are a helpful insight.

Re: Sargon

William — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 01:11:51 GMT

wilderness:

"A Jewish legend of the birth of Abraham, drawn from a late Midrash..."* by Louis Ginzberg, The Legends of the Jews, translated by Henrietta Szold (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1913) has the story of Abraham's birth when Nimrod was king, "Abraham's birth had been read in the stars by Nimrod; for this impious king was a cunning astrologer, and it was manifest to him that a man would be born in his day who would rise up against him and triumphantly give the lie to his religion. In his terror of the fate foretold him in the stars, he sent for his princes and governors, and asked them to advice him..."

Here's one legend that might help draw some insight in correlating timelines.

*Occidental Mythology by Joseph Campbell

The Jewish traditions of pitting Nimrod against Abraham are interesting, but very late in Jewish mythological tradition

Re: Sargon

William — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 01:04:58 GMT

I was referring to Sargon of Akkad. But Dondoolee seems to have been referring to Sargon II due to referring to him as "a new man" as said in the quote

I too am talking about Sargon of Akkad. Sargon II was a Neo-Assyrian usurper. He had, and did attempt to create many parallels with Sargon I, so they can be easily confused.

What source states it's a misnomer about Sargon and he was actually born in Kish, Lilburne?

If it isn't in the previousl linked "Curse of Akkad" check out "The Battle King". Here is a wiki link stating he was a cup bearer for Ur-Zababa king of Kish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Zababa