History

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

William — Sat, 15 May 2010 21:37:30 GMT

If that is answerable, is there a way to explain how it formed?

A quickie answer: Humans are more or less naturaly hierarchical. Mix that with a location (such as the Mid East) that has predictable rainfalls and enough of a geographical condition to subsidise sendatary lifestyle and the ingredients are good for civilization.

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

William — Sat, 15 May 2010 21:22:35 GMT

I think the first state may have been Eridu in ancient Mesopotamia

What about Jericho, Byblos, or Damascus? I don't have time to fact check at the moment but off the top of my head I think these are all Neolithic cities that may pre date Ubaid culture.

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

Daniel James Sanchez — Sat, 15 May 2010 15:32:10 GMT

I think the first state may have been Eridu in ancient Mesopotamia. See my article Cradle of the State.

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

Libertyandlife — Sat, 15 May 2010 13:51:13 GMT

It took people this long to think that self ownership may be a good idea?

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

AnonLLF — Sat, 15 May 2010 13:18:10 GMT

Wikipedia has something on this.I'm not sure how reliable it is and some parts are statist propaganda but here's the parts that seem to be right:-

"For many thousands of centuries when people were hunter-gatherers and small scale farmers, humans lived in small, non-hierarchical and self-sufficient communities."

A guy called David Christian tries to link the rise of government to increase in population size but I don;t buy it.He does however hint that government arose around the point where early humans shifted from nomadic lifestyles to settled agriculture.

more:-

"The exact moment and place that the erectional phenomenon of human government developed is lost in time; however, history does record the formations of very early governments. About 5,000 years ago, the first small city-states appeared.^[8] By the third to second millenniums BC, some of these had developed into larger governed areas: Sumer, Ancient Egypt, the Indus Valley Civilization, and the Yellow River Civilization.^[9]"

This has led me to think that the idea that Oppenheimer and others have suggested is probably correct.It seems highly possible that government arose when nomadic peoples savaged farmers and realized that by setting themselves up as rulers they would have a fixed income and wealth without the travel and battles etc.

what do other people think?

Wiki cites as early examples of states :-

"Sumer—5200 BC^[9]

Ancient Egypt—3000 BC^[9]

Indus Valley Civilization—2600 BC^[9]^[21]

Yellow River Civilization (China)—2000 BC^[9]

Jiroft Civilization-3rd millennium BC

Norte Chico civilization-3000 BC^[22] ".

I hope this helps

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

James — Fri, 14 May 2010 19:48:55 GMT

The Code of Ur-Nammu? It's the oldest surviving legal document in the world, and it cites the king for legitimacy. Apparently the Code of Urukagina is older, but its only known by reference.

"…After An and Enlil had turned over the Kingship of Ur to Nanna, at that time did Ur-Nammu, son born of Ninsun, for his beloved mother who bore him, in accordance with his principles of equity and truth... Then did Ur-Nammu the mighty warrior, king of Ur, king of Sumer and Akkad, by the might of Nanna, lord of the city, and in accordance with the true word of Utu, establish equity in the land; he banished malediction, violence and strife, and set the monthly Temple expenses at 90 gur of barley, 30 sheep, and 30 sila of butter. He fashioned the bronze sila-measure, standardized the one-mina weight, and standardized the stone weight of a shekel of silver in relation to one mina... The orphan was not delivered up to the rich man; the widow was not delivered up to the mighty man; the man of one shekel was not delivered up to the man of one mina."

Hey, it makes about as much sense as the babble they spew today. Worship the state, for it has banished malediction!

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

EternalMind — Fri, 14 May 2010 06:51:49 GMT

Well that's why I specified a documented case. I am quite sure it is a lot farther back - but what is the earliest documentation we have? Or at least, what is considered the earliest documentation.

Re: Earliest Documentation of State?

Caley McKibbin — Fri, 14 May 2010 06:37:53 GMT

Last I heard about this it was not clear and agreed upon. It goes back farther than the advent of writing.

Earliest Documentation of State?

EternalMind — Fri, 14 May 2010 06:32:15 GMT

Very simple question: What is the earliest documentation of the formation of government? If that is answerable, is there a way to explain how it formed?

Yes, many, many, many people, classical liberalists, etc. state that the formation of government is by pillaging, fraud, coercion, etc. It's really good when debating anyone though to have some sort of evidence of such a case happening. What better case than the earliest documentated case? =O

So, anyone?