History

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

My Buddy — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 01:57:02 GMT

However, it is unlikely that your fantasy will occur because Greece has basically defaulted and despite the fact that they are not a higher order democracy like Belguim, they were not attacked, nor did France or Germany even contemplate the mobilization of their armed forces.

In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any objective, rational and independent thinking source that would support your fantasy of war between Spain, Belguim, France or Germany. But if you are really confident then you should be chomping at the bit to earn double the interest and your principle on a $1000 bet. Since your an anarchist I will have to explain that to you -- you will be earning interest income on $2000 while only putting up $1000 of your own money + you will double the principle, ANd the kicker is that this is guaranteed! Absolutely no risk cuz you are confident that liberal democracies fight wars against each other.

(A) "Greece isn't a higher order democracy because we say so!"

(B) "France and Germany haven't mobilized their forces, therefore it CANNOT happen!"

(C) Certainly. I agree to your bet. At about the time I die, (since you didn't outline any specific time when it expires) I will pay you $1000 had there been no war before the aforementioned countries.

However, you seemed to have missed the slight contradication in your fantasy regarding imminent war in Spain and Belgium -- you stated that Belguim collapses which would imply anarchism, no longer a liberal democracy. Also, you stated that Spain becomes communist, no longer a liberal democracy.

"collapse = anarchism"

"Communism isn't Democracy"

Way to move the goalposts there, pal. If a Communist government is DEMOCRATICALLY elected, it is no longer a higher order democracy? I was unaware that specific political parties had to win elections for a country to be considered democratic.

what is your criteria for a higher order authoritarian regime? And where are the data, methodology and results ? Has your list been peer reviewed? Has it passed any academic rigor ?

Maybe I am a little bias but It appears that your list is highly arbitrary and subjective and dishonestly designed to buttress a weak argument.

In contrast, my list regarding higher order democracies comes from a private civil 3rd party source who has been in the business for over 70 years identifying higher order liberal democracies (Freedom House) who has conducted extensive peer reviewed research and the methodology and results is open for all to examine. If you have a problem with the methodology or the analysis and you believe that you are a better authority on liberal democracy, provide your argument.\

HA HA HA

"extensive peer reviewed research"

I can imagine a peasant in Soviet Ukraine having a similar argument with an NKVD political officer. "But Comrade, Communism doesn't work! We're starving and just three days ago you dragged away an innocent person to shoot!"

"Pfah!" says the political officer, "you just can't see the big picture! Our great government has engaged in experimentation and used peer review to discover that Communism actually works! If you can provide an alternative source to this, please do so!"

Obviously the peasant can't provide an alternative source that the NKVD officer will find credible since he will doubletalk his way into claiming it is invalid. Likewise, many people in this thread have already handled this, so I don't think I need to work hard at it.

Now, back to the main topic, you STILL haven't found a credible situation in which the Higher Order Authoritarian Nations will find themselves in a state of war. Lets not bandy words here; its no less obviously biased than your silly theory. So, when you give me a credible scenario provided by a credible source in which those countries will wage war in the modern age, please do so. Until then, I can't take up your bet.

Note that Spain's liberal democracy is overrun by communists before war.

Again, you selectively quoted that, ignoring the "BY ELECTION" part. But okay. It could occur WITHOUT a significant change in government, if the aforementioned countries pulled an Iceland and provoked invasion by their debtors. Not that farfetched, at least not as farfetched as that recession and economic collapse that these "credible" sources didn't predict in the slightest.

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Autolykos — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:32:16 GMT

Here are the checklist questions for Freedom House's 2010 Freedon in the World report. I'll simply note that I'd answer many, if not most, of those questions differently from Freedom House regarding the United States and other countries in the Western world.

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Autolykos — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:20:20 GMT

Centinel:
It is not my list.

It comes from a private civil 3rd party NGO that has been doing this for over 70 years.

Freedom House.

Here is the link regarding the methodology used by the researchers at Freedom.org [sic - it's FreedomHouse.org].

Its all there dude, if you have a problem with it let me know. Btw, they are not affliated with any democratic peace theorists.

That's its methodology for its Freedom of the Press report. It's not its methodology for its Freedom in the World report. Are you using Freedom House's methodology for its Freedom of the Press report as your methodology for determining "higher-order democracies"? That is, is freedom of the press, or freedom of expression, your sole criteria there?

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Malachi — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 05:04:19 GMT

How can anyone 'not have the time' to be guaranteed to double their principle and double their interest income on an investment of $1000 in ten years?!

how can anyone be too dimwitted to understand that tying up a stack for 10 years is an idiotic investment? Admit it, youre ben bernanke's son and you know dad is going to inflate your college debt away along with any other idiot gambles you lost.

And of course, I dont trust you either. Thats why YOU find a reputable 3rd party to underwrite the wager. And seriously dude, you dont have $1000 bucks ?

Here we go! Seriously? You found a person on mises.org forums who doesnt have $1000 available for gambling? And a college student no less? I am sure you have money falling out of your ass (:eye roll:) especially considering your barely-literate screeds against "inferior" races and emotional appeals to stalin.

Aren't you anarchists suppose to understand market mechanisms and how the government manipulates these mechanisms ??

well enough to get better roi than your bet, absolutely. In fact, you are an idiot for trying to tie up $1000 for 10 years. Just pointing that out.

If your dogma is sound, shouldn't you be able to translate all of this 'logic' into action ? It seems like every anarchist gets a paycheck that has 'government' or public 'university' printed on it somewhere.

lol what do you do for living, dig ditches? We know it doesnt require advanced cognitive skills, so fess up.

Hell, didn't you buy gold ?

didnt you? Or are you a "dollar theorist" too?

Why aren't you buying depressed properties in Detroit for a song and dance, fixing them up and renting them out ? At least buy a cabin somewhere up in the mountains and stock it up with ammo, water and beef jerky as insurance. If nothing happens, at least you got a cool place to camp out with the kids

you have so many good ideas for how to spend other people's money, but I bet when you spend other people's money its on modern warfare sequels and 2 liter bottles of surge (or whatever neocons drink these days).

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Andrew Cain — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 04:50:08 GMT

"It is not my list.

It comes from a private civil 3rd party NGO that has been doing this for over 70 years.

Freedom House.

Here is the link regarding the methodology used by the researchers at Freedom.org.

Its all there dude, if you have a problem with it let me know. Btw, they are not affliated with any democratic peace theorists.

If you think you are a better judge of what constitutes a liberal democracy, then have at it and provide your own objective data, methodology and results."

You are the one advocating it, so you must know something about it and on some level agree with it. Is this too much to assume?

"How can anyone 'not have the time' to be guaranteed to double their principle and double their interest income on an investment of $1000 in ten years?!"

You are assuming that in 10 years it will still be worth the actual 1000 in purchasing power. ZOMG EconOMICZ!

"And of course, I dont trust you either. Thats why YOU find a reputable 3rd party to underwrite the wager. And seriously dude, you dont have $1000 bucks ? "

No I do not have 1000 bucks. I am a graduate student.

"Aren't you anarchists suppose to understand market mechanisms and how the government manipulates these mechanisms ??"

I am a historian with an interest in economics. I do not play the market.

"If your dogma is sound, shouldn't you be able to translate all of this 'logic' into action ? It seems like every anarchist gets a paycheck that has 'government' or public 'university' printed on it somewhere."

Yes, but action to what end. We do not all have the same exact end. My eudiamonia is a intellectual life, it does not have to be monetarily prosperous.

"Hell, didn't you buy gold ?"

Not right now. It is too pricey for me. I am thinking about trying silver though.

"Why aren't you buying depressed properties in Detroit for a song and dance, fixing them up and renting them out ?"

I do not live near Detroit, nor would I invest in a market that is still being inflated.

"At least buy a cabin somewhere up in the mountains and stock it up with ammo, water and beef jerky as insurance. If nothing happens, at least you got a cool place to camp out with the kids"

Well I do like Alaska.

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

My Buddy — Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:42:26 GMT

Since it is your opinion that liberal democracies are not peaceful with each other then I challenge you to cite an objective and realistic hypothetical case study in which ANY of these higher order democracies might engage in conflict against each other:

Funny, it looks like this is less a list of "liberal democracies" and more a list of "countries that are unlikely to, in their current state, go to war". Notably, Italy and Greece are both missing.

But okay, I'll shoot.

Belgium defaults on its debts and collapses. France and/or Germany occupies Belgium. War.

Spain is taken over by angry communists (either through revolution or election). Spain doesn't pay its debts. France attacks. War.

That was awfully easy. Now, allow me to make a counter theory, called the "Higher Order Authoritarian Theory". Give me a scenario in which the following countries will find themselves at war:

People's Republic of China

Russian Federation

Kyrgyzstan

Cuba

Peru

Kazakhstan

Turkmenistan

Mongolia

North Korea.

Therefore, fascist nations are less likely to go to war. Problem RJ Rummel?

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Andrew Cain — Sat, 19 Nov 2011 18:57:46 GMT

"It is not your perogative to define 'liberal democracy' for democratic peace theorists (DPT) any more than a Marxist can define for you what constitutes a capitalist society."

I have presented the definition of a liberal democracy in my previous post. This nonsense that only a DPT can define a liberal democracy is pretty childish especially when you change it to fit your argument. Define or be defined.

Concerning your comment on Japan, I never stated that women were allowed to vote in 1925. If you would actually read my post I said universal male suffrage. Women were not allowed to vote in the US until the 1920's. Blacks did not get fair elections until the 60's and today ex-felons are not allowed to vote. If your claim is that a liberal democracy allows free and fair voting of the people then you should knock some countries off that list of yours specifically the US

On the topic of Spain, if the US, assuming you still actually consider it a liberal democracy, were to institute term limits then would it stop being a liberal democracy?

Concerning your point of Germany, you are making a point about the expansion of executive power. A simple question, were people allowed to vote and was there a constitution? That is all that matters. After that it is a matter of how effective it is, the principle is already there.

And I see my bet comment still has not gotten through. Honestly, how surprising!

Re: When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Marko — Sat, 19 Nov 2011 08:27:30 GMT

I'm sorry, you must have mistaken me for someone who thinks you're worth talking to.