History

Re: Was America ever non-interventionist?

Andrew Cain — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 06:33:32 GMT

I think he makes an excellent point. The United States has always had a vested interest in moving west even when it was a colony of Britain. A great book on frontier men trying to push the boundaries of the American colony during and after Britain's rule is Patrick Griffin's American Leviathan. I think he misrepresents Hobbes a little but it is not a terrible book.

It can be argued that the American empire started during or after the War of 1812 with the British because you finally have the United States flexing its new military arm (the newly established navy) into international trade waters. This gave it the ability to dictate its own terms without being under the whim of the vast British fleet.

I think a great book on the rise of the American empire itself is William Appleman Williams The Roots of American Empire. It is a bit old but still good in my mind.

Re: Was America ever non-interventionist?

Sukrit — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:38:22 GMT

It's only since about 1953 that America has had this massive worldwide empire, where the CIA can go around assasinating leaders and waging covert wars, and where the US is stationed in 130 countries.

So if we returned to the imperfect foreign policy of the 1800s, that'd still be a lot better than what the US has now.

Re: Was America ever non-interventionist?

Morty — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 00:47:41 GMT

I think he makes a reasonable point. America has always been interventionist and such is the case when dealing with an evil institution like the United States government. However, this fact alone hardly proves that all of the Founding Fathers were interventionists, only a very select few ever became President, after all.

Re: Was America ever non-interventionist?

ama gi — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 00:33:38 GMT

Sukrit Sabhlok:
The United States has been expansive, either territorially or in terms of influence, for some 400 years, so where is the non-expansionist, non-interventionist tradition in American foreign policy? The libertarian—and what I consider to be the minimalist realist critique—is fine, but I don’t agree with it. It does not describe the country that is the United States of America.

Quotes from the original Founding Fathers show exactly what they thought about non-interventionism. That they found it difficult to put into practice, in part because of internal pressure from mercantilist statesmen and in part because of external pressure from foreign governments, does not disprove that non-interventionism is the best policy when it is practiced.

Re: Was America ever non-interventionist?

DBratton — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 12:56:13 GMT

I mostly agree with the RK quote. But it's worth noting that before the current constitution there were expansionist and warlike factions as well as non-interventionist and pacifist factions, and it was possible to actualy practice non-interventionism. With union came the universal requirement that everyone goes to war together (or at least they have to pay for it).

Re: Was America ever non-interventionist?

Marko — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 11:35:15 GMT

Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain't marchin' anymore

For I've killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain't marchin' anymore

chorus)
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all

For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others But I ain't marchin' anymore

For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain't marchin' anymore

(chorus)

For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
That I ain't marchin' anymore

Now the labor leader's screamin'
when they close the missile plants,
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason,"
Call it "Love" or call it "Reason,"
But I ain't marchin' any more,
No I ain't marchin' any more

-Phil Ochs; I ain't marching anymore

Yepp, it seems to me USA has always been a warmongering expansionist.

Was America ever non-interventionist?

Sukrit — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:45:10 GMT

Libertarians often cite Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and other founding fathers and call for a "return" to the traditional American foreign policy. But Robert Kagan (a neo-con) disputes that America was ever non-interventionist. Is he right?

SW: What do you say to libertarians and others who are critical of an expansive and activist American foreign policy and who quote the 19th century Secretary of State John Quincy Adams’ famous dictum that America is the ‘well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all . . . [but] the champion and vindicator only of her own’?

RK: John Quincy Adams is one of the most misquoted people ever. The people who quote him have not studied very carefully his foreign policy, which was not reflected in that one statement. The libertarian critique of American foreign policy is perfectly coherent but where libertarians sometimes go wrong is in thinking that America was ever the way they are now describing what they would like it to be. The United States has been expansive, either territorially or in terms of influence, for some 400 years, so where is the non-expansionist, non-interventionist tradition in American foreign policy? The libertarian—and what I consider to be the minimalist realist critique—is fine, but I don’t agree with it. It does not describe the country that is the United States of America.