Political Theory

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

William — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:18:04 GMT

sicsempertyrannis:

Dondoolee:

ladyattis:

Actually, Ditko has done some limited penciling in the early 2000s for a few comics. He's reclusive for the fact that he didn't want his art to be mingled with his personal life. To him his artwork lived apart from him. Perhaps that's what he learned with Mr. A, that sometimes the audience isn't all too interested in what you think as an artist, but rather just want your skill in the craft instead.

To be fair, while the Question was awsome, Mr A was just bad story telling from the 3 stories I read. When someone lets philosophy get to much in the way of a story it ruins it for me. Just my opinion.

Other than that I find the most unbelievable part of the watchmen not a giant squid or atomic blue naked guy, but a mainstream right wing news paper. Brilliant comic book though

Yes, it did. He already had a bit of editorializing in his art (something about his hate of hippies in Dr Strange), but Mr A was a bit out there. I still love his work for Strange Tales - classic.

But you could always read it for the story and enjoy just the story and art. Like the Watchmen, it has a pretty profound message (one which I have some sympathie) but you can ignore it and just love the story. Mr A however, is essentially just Ditko preaching a message. Maybe there is nothing wrong with that, however that is not how I prefer my fiction. I always prefer a story first (or music first, or art first, etc) mentality, which is why I find Mr A inferior to The Question. Like I said that's just my opinion.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

scineram — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:18:10 GMT

I will certainly rush to comment on this as soon as the axxo rip comes out.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

sicsempertyrannis — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:57:33 GMT

Dondoolee:

ladyattis:

Actually, Ditko has done some limited penciling in the early 2000s for a few comics. He's reclusive for the fact that he didn't want his art to be mingled with his personal life. To him his artwork lived apart from him. Perhaps that's what he learned with Mr. A, that sometimes the audience isn't all too interested in what you think as an artist, but rather just want your skill in the craft instead.

To be fair, while the Question was awsome, Mr A was just bad story telling from the 3 stories I read. When someone lets philosophy get to much in the way of a story it ruins it for me. Just my opinion.

Other than that I find the most unbelievable part of the watchmen not a giant squid or atomic blue naked guy, but a mainstream right wing news paper. Brilliant comic book though

Yes, it did. He already had a bit of editorializing in his art (something about his hate of hippies in Dr Strange), but Mr A was a bit out there. I still love his work for Strange Tales - classic.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

William — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:44:20 GMT

ladyattis:

Actually, Ditko has done some limited penciling in the early 2000s for a few comics. He's reclusive for the fact that he didn't want his art to be mingled with his personal life. To him his artwork lived apart from him. Perhaps that's what he learned with Mr. A, that sometimes the audience isn't all too interested in what you think as an artist, but rather just want your skill in the craft instead.

To be fair, while the Question was awsome, Mr A was just bad story telling from the 3 stories I read. When someone lets philosophy get to much in the way of a story it ruins it for me. Just my opinion.

Other than that I find the most unbelievable part of the watchmen not a giant squid or atomic blue naked guy, but a mainstream right wing news paper. Brilliant comic book though

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

William — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:35:23 GMT

With a thread titled "moral philosophy and the watchmen" I don't think the SPOILERS heading is needed. A person would be a fool to open the thread if they didn't want the movie plot ruined.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

abskebabs — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:15:20 GMT

I love how this has turned into a discussion of Rorschach! I have problems with his character, but out of all the others he's the one I respect the most, because it seems to be the only one with any real moral principles. I suppose Nite Owl kind of has them, but he seems a coward to me.

I personally couldn't help but make the connection between Rorschach and Robert De Niro's character from Martin Scorcese's Taxi Driver, incidentally also a jaded Vietnam veteran complaining about the lack of Morals in 1980s New York! In any case De Niro's character is far less psychopathic, and has been a character from a film who I have sympathised a lot with.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

sicsempertyrannis — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:47:55 GMT

ladyattis:

Actually, Ditko has done some limited penciling in the early 2000s for a few comics. He's reclusive for the fact that he didn't want his art to be mingled with his personal life. To him his artwork lived apart from him. Perhaps that's what he learned with Mr. A, that sometimes the audience isn't all too interested in what you think as an artist, but rather just want your skill in the craft instead.

I knew he had done some minor work. All I know is he had not made a public appearence in almost 40 years (his right of course). I am fortunate to own several peices of his original artwork from Atlas comics (Marvel Comics name from 1951-1957), however.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

ladyattis — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:44:37 GMT

Actually, Ditko has done some limited penciling in the early 2000s for a few comics. He's reclusive for the fact that he didn't want his art to be mingled with his personal life. To him his artwork lived apart from him. Perhaps that's what he learned with Mr. A, that sometimes the audience isn't all too interested in what you think as an artist, but rather just want your skill in the craft instead.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

sicsempertyrannis — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:39:36 GMT

ladyattis:

Rorschach was a joke of a character for me, not because he wasn't brutal, but because Moore never *got* Objectivism. It's not surprising, considering he probably never read anything by Rand within the context it was meant.

I am almost sure it was intended more as a barb against Steve Ditko. Ditko's work did get weird when he tried interjecting his Objectivism into it, and not long after he drifted into obscurity - where he remains (in fact now he is a hermit). I wouldnt get too offended by his portrayal of it, considering its a cartoonish parody of what he *thinks* Randianism is.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

ladyattis — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:07:21 GMT

Rorschach was a joke of a character for me, not because he wasn't brutal, but because Moore never *got* Objectivism. It's not surprising, considering he probably never read anything by Rand within the context it was meant.

First, Objectivism doesn't suppose moral absolutism, it simply supposes there is a right and there is a wrong, and that it is possible to know by a consistent basis which is which.

Second, Objectivism doesn't suppose any cultural norms as moral or immoral, in fact Objectivist Ethics would run counter to the majority of so-called cultural norms (especially the overdependence on family, or "king and country" for example).

Third, Objectivism contends that no life should be sacrificed as life in respect to human life is valuable (or at least can be valued thus gain value from those who possess it).

Just on those three points alone, Rorschach would have had many issues accepting Objectivism under any basis. He would have probably considered it a 'liberal' philosophy.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

meambobbo — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 06:11:32 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
please provide evidence that rorsarch's character has killed a liberal for being a liberal, a prostitute for being a prositite etc. maybe i havent read the story close enough.

i'll look closer too but ponder this...

he definitely says that the liberals, prostitutes, and politicians would ask him to save them, and he says he wouldn't. why deny such general classes of people justice, if that is his supposed goal?

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

nirgrahamUK — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:23:57 GMT

who do you rely on to provide moral judgements? which you then adopt? if you say no-one, and that you are your own judge. then supposedly that makes you a fascist?

thanks for dancing with me.

please provide evidence that rorsarch's character has killed a liberal for being a liberal, a prostitute for being a prositite etc. maybe i havent read the story close enough.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

laminustacitus — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:19:07 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
from what i know of his character he wouldnt care what this law or that law was in place. he is the judge.

He is the judge, he is the arbiter of his own justice upon the world. In colloquial words: he is a fascist, stop dancing around the term,

nirgrahamUK:
also having 'dislikes' is not the same as 'being active against'. (this is another way of saying that libertarianism is not libertinism.)

He has no problem with killing anybody who partakes in activities he dislikes; ergo, he is fully against that which he dislikes.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

meambobbo — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:19:22 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
i dont know what a cultural fascist is. so no comment on that.

I simply meant that he takes a fascist view of social liberty - he is intolerant of certain cultural preferences, and I do believe he would rationalize aggressive violence as justified against such. I think it goes beyond dislikes; however, the work does not seem to have enough details to clearly say. I tend to think that he was simply too busy with bigger fish that were clearly criminal.

Re: Moral philosophy in the movie Watchmen

nirgrahamUK — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:46:24 GMT

from what i know of his character he wouldnt care what this law or that law was in place. he is the judge.

also having 'dislikes' is not the same as 'being active against'. (this is another way of saying that libertarianism is not libertinism.)

i dont know what a cultural fascist is. so no comment on that.