Political Theory

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

MacFall — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:44:26 GMT

SilentXtarian:

Okay, would people be allow to protest on their own even if they don't have the right to as they do now though?

People would be able to do absolutely whatever they wanted on their own property, or on others by the license of the owner. There is no positive right to protest; only a negative right against having others stopping you from doing so as long as you are not initiating force in the process of the protest.

I understand that our country is not what it is meant out to be... what could we do to get back our country? Maybe Direct Democracy? Maybe no state? I just don't want to do away with our country entirely.

We can rid ourselves of the state without losing our nationhood, where that nationhood is natural. Currently, there are people bound together in unnatural political union. That would not be the case in a free society, where freedom of association (and the corrolary freedom of exclusion) prevail.

But to the extent that and in the places where people share similar values, culture, and language, the nation of America would still exist.

I actually do not object to direct democracy - though only in a voluntary form. Specifically, I like the idea of Representative Participatory Democracy as imagined by L. Neil Smith: everyone can vote, either through a delegate (which they can freely choose, regardless of geographic location up to the time of the vote) or directly. There is a 90% quorum, and any action passed when the assembly votes applies only to those who voted.

It's sort of a compromise, but I'd be okay with it as long as such a body had no legislative or confiscatory powers. People could wean themselves off their habits of bureaucracy and politics as slowly as they wished, but in the meantime anyone who had no such addiction could simply ignore the government, for the most part.

Keep in mind that it is not law and order we seek to abolish - it is the territorial monopolist on the provision of those things that we oppose.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

SilentXtarian — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:27:42 GMT

SilentXtarian:

Okay... let me ask a few questions.

Is there any room for unions in a libertarian society?

Yes. All forms of voluntary association are fine in a libertarian society. But there would be little need for them.

I understand that much.

What kinds of protests would be allowed in a libertarian society?

Any that do not violate anyone's property rights. But why would there be protests in a libertarian society? The primary social check would be the boycott, and it would be far more effective than any political action ever has been.

Okay, would people be allow to protest on their own even if they don't have the right to as they do now though?

All kinds. A state is a compulsory monopoly on initiatory force. Such an institution is, by definition, unlimited in function, no matter what "the law" says it may and may not do.

Okay, then never mind...

Yes you are. That is not name-calling, it is a fact. You want a state; you are a statist.

I don't want a state. I just think it's a necessary evil.

So do I, but I realize that the concept of "our country" has absolutely nothing to do with the government that taxes it.

I know that. Unfortunately that is the case.

First, it's not "our" consititution. It's their constitution.

Second, to paraphrase Lysander Spooner, whatever tyranny the Constitution did not itself approve, it has been utterly powerless to prevent. It is, as George W. Bush observed, just a goddamned piece of paper.

Third, the Constitution was never intended to protect liberty. It was the result of a successful coup by statists who found themselves disenfranchised when the colonies won the war. It was illegally foisted upon the colonies without the consent of their peoples, and has ever since been an instrument of plunder for the policial class.

I see... there needs to be a lot more privatization of government faciliities. I understand that our country is not what it is meant out to be... what could we do to get back our country? Maybe Direct Democracy? Maybe no state? I just don't want to do away with our country entirely.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

MacFall — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:13:34 GMT

SilentXtarian:

Okay... let me ask a few questions.

Is there any room for unions in a libertarian society?

Yes. All forms of voluntary association are fine in a libertarian society. But there would be little need for them.

What kinds of protests would be allowed in a libertarian society?

Any that do not violate anyone's property rights. But why would there be protests in a libertarian society? The primary social check would be the boycott, and it would be far more effective than any political action ever has been.

In a minarchist state what kind of government functions would be allowed?

All kinds. A state is a compulsory monopoly on initiatory force. Such an institution is, by definition, unlimited in function, no matter what "the law" says it may and may not do.

You see, I don't really understand how the libertarian thought would deal with these kinds of problems.

I suggest going here and educating yourself. I especially recommend anything by Rothbard, for starters.

I don't really want to get away with the government altogether because I like our country's principle, I like what America stands for, and I don't want us to go away

Okay, but you ought to realize that no government, no matter how constituted, will ever give a rat's ass about what you think America stands for.

I'm not a statist.

Yes you are. That is not name-calling, it is a fact. You want a state; you are a statist.

I just love the idea of our country

So do I, but I realize that the concept of "our country" has absolutely nothing to do with the government that taxes it.

I'm a believer in our constitution

First, it's not "our" consititution. It's their constitution.

Second, to paraphrase Lysander Spooner, whatever tyranny the Constitution did not itself approve, it has been utterly powerless to prevent. It is, as George W. Bush observed, just a goddamned piece of paper.

Third, the Constitution was never intended to protect liberty. It was the result of a successful coup by statists who found themselves disenfranchised when the colonies won the war. It was illegally foisted upon the colonies without the consent of their peoples, and has ever since been an instrument of plunder for the policial class.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

Maxliberty — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:39:47 GMT

liberty student:

Jon Irenicus:

What kinds of protests would be allowed in a libertarian society?

Peaceful ones.

I was thinking about this today. What would people protest in a market economy? When you vote with your dollars, and free choices, why would you waste time lobbying anyone or anything to change?

I think that protesting is a consequence of having limited choices, in which case reform is the only possible method for change. But with limitless choices and competition, any firm or institution that got to the point of being protested or lobbied would already be hearing the footsteps of their competitors.

My 2 cents. Be interested to read what others think of this...

People would still protest as a means to get others to join there way of thinking, for example expanding awareness of a boycott.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

Maxliberty — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:35:42 GMT

SilentXtarian:

Okay... let me ask a few questions.

Is there any room for unions in a libertarian society?

What kinds of protests would be allowed in a libertarian society?

In a minarchist state what kind of government functions would be allowed?

You see, I don't really understand how the libertarian thought would deal with these kinds of problems. I don't really want to get away with the government altogether because I like our country's principle, I like what America stands for, and I don't want us to go away... but I just wonder how libertarian thought would allow for it. That's why I think it's idealist... I just don't know how we could do away with some things. I'm not a statist. I just love the idea of our country... I'm a believer in our constitution and yeah... I think I've said enough on this subject.

How ironic, you challenge people to be critical thinkers and yet are unwilling to do it yourself. Answer your own questions. Think for yourself.

How would unions work in a society where people were free to associate with whom they wanted?

What kind of protests would be acceptable in a free society?

There is no such thing as a minarchist state.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

wilderness — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:44:14 GMT

SilentXtarian:

wilderness:

SilentXtarian:

I just would like to see every model of a government first proven wrong before we go to a stateless society.

This fits in with "inefficiency" that you brought up in your earlier post. What is this proof of wrong you want to "see" (as you put it)?

First of all, I'm a believer that representative Democracy has been hijacked. All of this secrecy needs to go away. The army needs to do away with operations northwood. I think if the government starts actually caring about its people more then we would probably be better off. What I'm saying is that our government needs to care about us again... and if that doesn't work then we need to a stateless society. I see government as a nessecary evil. I don't think we have to be all evil and stuff... but I am not ready to do awaay with it entirely.

How do you legislate care? How do you force care? either one...

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

liberty student — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:04:43 GMT

Jon Irenicus:

What kinds of protests would be allowed in a libertarian society?

Peaceful ones.

I was thinking about this today. What would people protest in a market economy? When you vote with your dollars, and free choices, why would you waste time lobbying anyone or anything to change?

I think that protesting is a consequence of having limited choices, in which case reform is the only possible method for change. But with limitless choices and competition, any firm or institution that got to the point of being protested or lobbied would already be hearing the footsteps of their competitors.

My 2 cents. Be interested to read what others think of this...

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

Bostwick — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:55:10 GMT

SilentXtarian:
You see, I don't really understand how the libertarian thought would deal with these kinds of problems.

Which is a personal failing. But rather than admit to having trouble understanding others, you have decided to pretend that their arguments don't exist.

This may surpise you, but ideologies arrise from individuals using their "own individual critical thinking." Of course, the quality of the ideology is determined by the mental tools used. Someone with your attitude is going to end up with a very poor ideology, indeed.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

Jon Irenicus — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:56:47 GMT

Is there any room for unions in a libertarian society?

Voluntary ones.

What kinds of protests would be allowed in a libertarian society?

Peaceful ones.

In a minarchist state what kind of government functions would be allowed?

Nothing but the provision of law and order. Even that is too much, IMO, to be left to a legal monopoly.

It's the idea that being on either extreme is a rejection of systematic, logical thinking, so being in the middle they say would be better than the other two extremes.

Or rather, it is systematic, logical thinking that leads to an extreme, once contradictions are purged.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

DanielMuff — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:20:39 GMT

Please define common good.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

SilentXtarian — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:02:18 GMT

I'm all for a government that doesn' use force on its people. If that's what you mean by stateless society-- a voluntary group of individuals-- working for the common good... then I would be all for it. But as an American the idea of my country has been ingrained on me pretty much since birth. But we could change how society is ran and the like.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

Zavoi — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:58:54 GMT

SilentXtarian:
I think if the government starts actually caring about its people more then we would probably be better off. What I'm saying is that our government needs to care about us again... and if that doesn't work then we need to a stateless society.

How do you define "caring about its people"? If by this you mean "not using force against them," then you are already in favor of a stateless society, where the "government" is no more than a voluntary group of individuals. If not, then please do elaborate on what you mean.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

zefreak — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:51:45 GMT

The state is by its very nature coercive and no amount of "caring for its people" can provide a moral justification for it. Representative Democracy, Monarchy, Fascism, just different forms cut from the same cloth.

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

liberty student — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:51:05 GMT

SilentXtarian:
I just would like to see every model of a government first proven wrong before we go to a stateless society.

Yeah, I mean it was a good thing they tested communism by murdering 100 million of their own citizens in the 20th century. You know, just to be sure it wasn't the "correct solution".

Re: The best way to understand political thinking is not through ideoloies but by yourself.

SilentXtarian — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:30:27 GMT

wilderness:

SilentXtarian:

I just would like to see every model of a government first proven wrong before we go to a stateless society.

This fits in with "inefficiency" that you brought up in your earlier post. What is this proof of wrong you want to "see" (as you put it)?

First of all, I'm a believer that representative Democracy has been hijacked. All of this secrecy needs to go away. The army needs to do away with operations northwood. I think if the government starts actually caring about its people more then we would probably be better off. What I'm saying is that our government needs to care about us again... and if that doesn't work then we need to a stateless society. I see government as a nessecary evil. I don't think we have to be all evil and stuff... but I am not ready to do awaay with it entirely.