Political Theory

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

wilderness — Mon, 18 May 2009 17:17:59 GMT

liberty student:

wilderness:
Coordination is happening: G20 decisions, World Bankers meeting, IMF, World Bank, WHO, Federal Reserve and all ties to U.S. dollar as world reserve, increased global governance on global trade/globalization, and decisions, ex. of decisions global regulatory of SEC is now activated, central banks interest rates go up and down in coordination, global effort on Swine flue, NATO in Afghanistan, etc...

And that is just the stuff we see. That's what they tell us about. We can be darn sure there is a lot more collaboration on sensitive topics...

Yeap. I know they coordinate outside of meetings too. Maybe a phone call. Maybe somebody passes the word somehow or they follow a plan. But there was no explicit meeting on going after supposed monopolies last week, but Europe and the U.S. both came out at the same time and went after what they are calling Anti-Trust breakers. Intel in Europe and Google in U.S. to name some that came up. Fiat is the most clear example I'm seeing of a convergence right now. This car company is going to get U.S. government money, Italian government money, and is currently trying to get German government money. Fiat holds a 3-4% GDP of Italy. The owner who recently died in 2003 was considered the 'king of Italy'. Another billion dollar business man who is also I believe Prime Minister in Italy currently is called 'the king of Italy'. Monarchy excludes the people. There's a bunch of wheeling and dealing going on without the law being followed. First of all Obama shouldn't even say anything about Chrysler and Fiat and to announce a plan that includes U.S. tax dollars going to Fiat before a Federal Judge looks over the bankruptcy case. But they have this stuff planned out way ahead of time.

Heck, I know people that track the law show how the legal system via Treaties that lead back to the Vatican and the Pope. I don't know everything going on in this scenario, but let people keep an eye on what for some reason is a very powerful institution, the Vatican being. Millions of people listen to the pope. But I'm sure I'm a nut for even thinking the Vatican could ever possibly have strength even though they were once an Empire and had explicit power in Europe up until the Protestant Reformation in England, but even that didn't end the Vaticans influence. Why were so many Americans afraid of JFK being Catholic? I think American's tend to be cautious about Church and State relations. Cause Catholic's listen to the pope and he is their Divine Leader in spiritual lineage back to Paul. Maybe world leaders go and visit the pope often cause they are paying tribute to an old man and humoring him. But that's a whole other story in itself and I'm sure I might be labeled a nut when I mumble about the pope here.

And yes, this thread might be getting de-railed.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

liberty student — Mon, 18 May 2009 16:46:41 GMT

wilderness:
Coordination is happening: G20 decisions, World Bankers meeting, IMF, World Bank, WHO, Federal Reserve and all ties to U.S. dollar as world reserve, increased global governance on global trade/globalization, and decisions, ex. of decisions global regulatory of SEC is now activated, central banks interest rates go up and down in coordination, global effort on Swine flue, NATO in Afghanistan, etc...

And that is just the stuff we see. That's what they tell us about. We can be darn sure there is a lot more collaboration on sensitive topics...

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Spideynw — Mon, 18 May 2009 15:14:09 GMT

Individualist:
I would very much like to see an anarchist society in my lifetime, but what are the prospects of freedom in our time?

Nill

Individualist:
How long do you predict it will be till there is an anarchist society?

However long it takes to invent something that will give it to us (a replicator for example).

Individualist:
I think that will be an easier feat than a minarchist society. Agree?

No, I think they are both just as difficult.

Individualist:
Also, what do you think the prospects of secession are?

Nill

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

wilderness — Mon, 18 May 2009 13:10:46 GMT

pablofrancisco:

Individualist:

Conza88:

Individualist:
Will all people groups join in a world federation? What about Montana and Alaska?

There's a clause in the Constitution which allows for treaties to become the supreme law of the land.

Essentially, there will be people who won't want to. A growing number in my opinion due to the Liberty movement.

Will a global government even come into being unless nation-states are weakened? If nation-states are weakened, won't secession be more viable than it is now? Might these smaller states be more likely to cede land to anarchists?

Lots of speculation, but I dont think a global government would come into existence except through strong arming by states.

Why isn't global government here now? Political, economic, military, and health world personnel coordinate efforts on the global scale right now. I made a list for reference to point this out. Global government is here. The meetings are not explicitly active as Nation-States, but they meet come back to their individual Nation-States and implement. Coordination is happening: G20 decisions, World Bankers meeting, IMF, World Bank, WHO, Federal Reserve and all ties to U.S. dollar as world reserve, increased global governance on global trade/globalization, and decisions, ex. of decisions global regulatory of SEC is now activated, central banks interest rates go up and down in coordination, global effort on Swine flue, NATO in Afghanistan, etc...)

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Pablo — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:32:31 GMT

Individualist:

Conza88:

Individualist:
Will all people groups join in a world federation? What about Montana and Alaska?

There's a clause in the Constitution which allows for treaties to become the supreme law of the land.

Essentially, there will be people who won't want to. A growing number in my opinion due to the Liberty movement.

Will a global government even come into being unless nation-states are weakened? If nation-states are weakened, won't secession be more viable than it is now? Might these smaller states be more likely to cede land to anarchists?

Lots of speculation, but I dont think a global government would come into existence except through strong arming by states.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Pablo — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:23:15 GMT

Individualist:

pablofrancisco:

I believe the only way a society that upholds the NAP principle will ever truly come into existence is if the rulers have something to be afraid of. That is only going to happen when a PDA is strong enough to defend its members against state coercion.
Can a powerful PDA come even come into being on land controlled by a state?

Sure they can. Just not in the same form as you might be thinking.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Individualist — Mon, 18 May 2009 02:32:48 GMT

Conza88:

Individualist:
Will all people groups join in a world federation? What about Montana and Alaska?

There's a clause in the Constitution which allows for treaties to become the supreme law of the land.

Essentially, there will be people who won't want to. A growing number in my opinion due to the Liberty movement.

Will a global government even come into being unless nation-states are weakened? If nation-states are weakened, won't secession be more viable than it is now? Might these smaller states be more likely to cede land to anarchists?

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Individualist — Mon, 18 May 2009 02:30:10 GMT

pablofrancisco:

I believe the only way a society that upholds the NAP principle will ever truly come into existence is if the rulers have something to be afraid of. That is only going to happen when a PDA is strong enough to defend its members against state coercion.

Can a powerful PDA come even come into being on land controlled by a state?

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Pablo — Mon, 18 May 2009 01:11:27 GMT

whipitgood:

pablofrancisco:
involuntary government may seem like a contradiction in terms to all of us

How is that a contradiction? All governments are necessarily involuntary in some aspect or another, otherwise they would cease to be a government. At the very least, they hold a coercive monopoly on the ability to use force.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say though.

Nope, you understoof properly, I just mistyped it.

What I meant was that a voluntary government seems like a contradiction in terms.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

DanielMuff — Mon, 18 May 2009 00:11:21 GMT

No, not all governments. Only the State.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

whipitgood — Sun, 17 May 2009 22:26:21 GMT

pablofrancisco:
involuntary government may seem like a contradiction in terms to all of us

How is that a contradiction? All governments are necessarily involuntary in some aspect or another, otherwise they would cease to be a government. At the very least, they hold a coercive monopoly on the ability to use force.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say though.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

wilderness — Sun, 17 May 2009 21:47:47 GMT

pablofrancisco:

wilderness:
The world government will simply be, under an involuntary situation, the peace-maker, the economic planner, the education maker, etc, etc...

Don't involuntary governments (and I say involuntary government may seem like a contradiction in terms to all of us, but it makes a great distinction in the minds of the average Joe) do this already? The difference between the actual size (land mass occupied) makes almost no difference!

Yes governments are coordinating their efforts to do this in sequence. What I mean when I say they come out to do this what a peace-maker needs is a war. An economic planner needs an economy that is suffering to do their great planning and saving upon. An education maker needs minds to manipulate. Therefore a world government doesn't force people to see each other as one. Actually the opposite must be true by a world government to exist. It needs to provide legitimacy for their self-professed specialness manipulating as many people in the world as possible to make them think the world government is the true need and savior for their hardships. No, governments don't provide this. And if people see each other as being the same, as humans, that is self-generated and eventually a choice. My parents can tell me anything, but eventually life itself will have to match the ideas. And governments aren't matching up to their self-professed propaganda. Actually governments look like liars and showboats that don't do anything but take all the credit.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Pablo — Sun, 17 May 2009 21:32:23 GMT

wilderness:
The world government will simply be, under an involuntary situation, the peace-maker, the economic planner, the education maker, etc, etc...

Don't involuntary governments (and I say involuntary government may seem like a contradiction in terms to all of us, but it makes a great distinction in the minds of the average Joe) do this already? The difference between the actual size (land mass occupied) makes almost no difference!

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

wilderness — Sun, 17 May 2009 20:38:11 GMT

pablofrancisco:

nazgulnarsil:
Large scale wars will be replaced with dozens of smaller wars and new ways will be engineered to make the proles fearful and cough up the products of their labor.

I just said it was more difficult, and it is. Look at the public support for the current war. When people realize that the majority of people from the world are all the same, and not some irrational mindless murderers, then the tactics of these wars falter heavily. Problem is, people are influenced by bs media pretty easily.

All I am saying is discussing the difference between large and small governments blankets the true debate- involuntary vs voluntary.

That is the true debate "involuntary vs. voluntary", but we will not be perceived as all the same for the world government leaders need to be special. What do they offer? Persistence against the same rehashed lies of class warfare, industrialized versus non-industrialized, Security Council elite countries versus those that don't hold such positions, terrorism, etc... Unless we're thinking some really sci-fi high tech stuff to keep everybody thinking we are the same pure and simply diversity will always be here. And unless we are all controlled and enslaved we are not going to be doing the same things. The world government will simply be, under an involuntary situation, the peace-maker, the economic planner, the education maker, etc, etc... They will force their agendas on us and that is impossible. Diversity is good and natural. Individuals are unique. So they can't stop that unless they force slavery upon us. Now if you mean voluntary as in free market all governments are gone type of situation then that's a totally difference situation. A one world government doesn't mean we all of a sudden think we are the same. Life is way more complex and diverse than that. And the world government will need to push something special that they can offer to provide legitimacy. And right now Nation-State governments don't even produce anything, not even ideas that are unique, other than those agenda's that mold the existing societal developments from the free market according to their whims.

Re: Future Prognosis of Liberty

Pablo — Sun, 17 May 2009 20:26:53 GMT

nazgulnarsil:
Large scale wars will be replaced with dozens of smaller wars and new ways will be engineered to make the proles fearful and cough up the products of their labor.

I just said it was more difficult, and it is. Look at the public support for the current war. When people realize that the majority of people from the world are all the same, and not some irrational mindless murderers, then the tactics of these wars falter heavily. Problem is, people are influenced by bs media pretty easily.

All I am saying is discussing the difference between large and small governments blankets the true debate- involuntary vs voluntary.