Political Theory

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

Juan — Mon, 18 May 2009 08:29:03 GMT

MacFall:
- I point out that you are a conspiracy theorist.

What (the hell) is a conspiracy theorist ?

conspiracy :a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose.
conspiracy : Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
conspiracy : any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

liberty student — Mon, 18 May 2009 06:31:43 GMT

MacFall:
Because it was relevant. But bringing something up does not mean that I am saying you believe in it.

It was not relevant. And you deliberately brought it up to conflate conspiracy theory with Bilderberg, when anyone with a little sincerity and the capacity to use Google can verify it is in fact a very real thing.

MacFall:
- I point out that you are a conspiracy theorist.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I have not said anything that is not substantiated by evidence. Plain, public evidence.

Care to refute that? Can you source and refute anything I have said?

MacFall:
You point out that you don't care what clubs they are in or call researching it a waste of time or say you haven't reached the same conclusions, or decide you don't want to spend the hours of time doing the research that convinced them, and that somehow makes you a gatekeeper.

Sure, you claim they are in a club (they are not), now you claim you won't waste time researching something you claim to already have knowledge of, and you don't draw conclusions from facts, but choose to present false arguments and diminish the capacity and character of the people whose ideas you are so upset over.

Let's face it, you had no idea what you were talking about, and you still do not. All you have offered is strawmen and Ad homs, not one iota of knowledge.

MacFall:
On that note, this will be my last reply to this conversation.

A good decision, since you have nothing tangible to offer to the discussion.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

MacFall — Mon, 18 May 2009 06:22:05 GMT

liberty student:

MacFall:
So that's quite enough of you accusing me of accusing you of antisemitism. Cut that bullshit out. I never said you were an anti-semite, nor that you believed in lizard people.

Then why did you bring it up?

Because it was relevant. But bringing something up does not mean that I am saying you believe in it.

- I say that some conspiracy theorists are antisemitic.

- I point out that you are a conspiracy theorist.

- You conclude that I have said that you are antisemitic.

That's called a logical fallacy. So is drawing from my statement that worrying about the Bilderbergers is a waste of time, that I must not believe in the Bilderbergers.

That's the thing about consipracy theorists - logical fallacies out the whazzoo. You point out that you don't care what clubs they are in or call researching it a waste of time or say you haven't reached the same conclusions, or decide you don't want to spend the hours of time doing the research that convinced them, and that somehow makes you a gatekeeper.

Every second you spend hacking at branches is time that you could be spending striking the root. It's not that I deny the branches exist. It's just that they do not deserve attention. On that note, this will be my last reply to this conversation. I should have learned long ago not to argue with conspiracy theorists, back when 9/11 truth was trendy.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

liberty student — Mon, 18 May 2009 06:04:16 GMT

MacFall:
So that's quite enough of you accusing me of accusing you of antisemitism. Cut that bullshit out. I never said you were an anti-semite, nor that you believed in lizard people.

Then why did you bring it up?

MacFall:
I simply listed off all the conspiracy theories I could think of and said that they a waste of time, from 9/11 truth to the lizardjewberger aliens. Doesn't matter which you believe in, nor does believing in one and not the others make it any less a waste of time.

But Bilderberg is not a fantasy. It is a matter of historical record. They were meeting in Greece last week, and the London Guardian sent someone to cover it, he was arrested twice for taking photos of the cars going in to the meeting area, then followed by the Greek police the remainder of the time he was there.

How you can claim that such obvious statism is on par with racism or aliens is mind boggling.

Anyway, I took a quick look on Wikipedia [1] [2], there is a lot of info there, including locations and guest lists.

And apparently wikileaks has just recently posted meeting reports that were discovered when the firm in charge of maintaining them went belly up. EDIT: I just took a quick look, and this stuff is amazing. They talk about how they prefer Rockefeller over Kennedy for President, on whether it is good policy to use U2 spyplanes, and the construction of a European trade block similar to Gatt. Now this is interesting crap because it lets you see what statists talk about and what they think is important. Anyway...

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Series/Bilderberg_reports

I didn't even want to talk about Bilderberg. Folks, don't confuse reality with aliens. Do your research. Apologies to the OP.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

MacFall — Mon, 18 May 2009 05:21:13 GMT

Here is what I said:

Chasing unprovable allegations about the NWO and the Bilderbergers and the Jews and the lizard-people and chemtrails and flouride and mind-control devices and who actually was responsible for 9/11 down labrynthine rabbit holes is a big freaking waste of time.

So that's quite enough of you accusing me of accusing you of antisemitism. Cut that bullshit out. I never said you were an anti-semite, nor that you believed in lizard people. I simply listed off all the conspiracy theories I could think of and said that they a waste of time, from 9/11 truth to the lizardjewberger aliens. Doesn't matter which you believe in, nor does believing in one and not the others make it any less a waste of time.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

liberty student — Mon, 18 May 2009 04:03:11 GMT

kurlare:
1. Can you link me to the agendas, locations and attenance lists?

Google for them. There is a lot of information posted online. As I told another individual, check out Daniel Estulin. He is able to get information from directly within the conferences.

kurlare:
2. You yourself stated that you were about to go all Alex Jones on this thread. If he's not reputable then why are you going all Alex Jones?

That was another thread and regarding another topic.

kurlare:
To clarify why it isn't rational to accept conspiracy theories: If there is a simpler explanation, the burden of proof rests on those who wish to offer a more complex one. Occams razor.

I'm not here to prove anything. The facts about Bilderberg speak for themselves, and neither the OP or I said anything that would indicate we were anti-semitic or obsessive about 9/11, lizard people etc.

kurlare:
I just think there are simpler explanations and we don't need to go as far as Alex Jones does to explain what is happening.

I don't know that Alex was sourced in this thread. I also happen to know that concerns about Bilderberg, the CFR, Tri-Lateral Commission etc go back before Alex was born.

This is the problem with MacFall's statements. He's assuming something not said. He (perhaps not you) assumes that anyone who talks about Bilderberg must be an anti-semite or into David Icke's theory about lizard people. He's reactionary, ignorant on this topic and close minded. Obviously there are nuanced opinions, and mine is very close to Ron Paul's.

But on the internet, this is normal. You get people who don't like certain topics, and they try to shut down discussion by name calling or making up strawmen. It usually doesn't happen as much here as on other forums. People here *generally* are capable of looking for, and understanding nuance.

Most of them.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

kurlare — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:54:48 GMT

1. Can you link me to the agendas, locations and attenance lists?

2. You yourself stated that you were about to go all Alex Jones on this thread. If he's not reputable then why are you going all Alex Jones?

To clarify why it isn't rational to accept conspiracy theories: If there is a simpler explanation, the burden of proof rests on those who wish to offer a more complex one. Occams razor.

I think you and I are talking a little bit past eachother - which is normal before you define your terms. Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that progressive idealogues just got lucky and are not 'conspiring' or 'planning' in any sense at all. They are certainly working together and planning to implement their vision of the world. They don't see individuals like you and I do - they see aggregates, everywhere aggregates! They are conceited, arrogant fucks. I will believe that they are a series of individuals motivated by progressive ideology and lust for personal fame and power before I believe they are part of some cabal.

As far as the press goes, of course huge corporations and politicians hate Ron Paul. He would end corporate and social welfare, which are the life blood for many corporations and politicians. The media is incredibly corrupt, I agree. Nevertheless I don't think they Rachel Maddow, Sean Hannity, or Jon Stewart are pawns of the NWO.

And I definitely do not think you are a kook, I just think there are simpler explanations and we don't need to go as far as Alex Jones does to explain what is happening. It's an interesting discussion because in the end you and I both agree that what is happening is sinister in nature - whether orchestrated by a cabal or by individuals living out their corrupt ideologies.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

liberty student — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:36:53 GMT

kurlare:
Are there any people throughout the history of the Bilderberg group that have come out and blown the whistle?

The agendas, locations and attendance lists are leaked.

kurlare:
My exposure to these theories of NWO and Bilderberg group have been through Alex Jones videos on YouTube. I have to say that they alone amount to little more than conspiracy theory. No one has any proof, it is all conjecture and paranoia.

There is a lot of hard proof. Maybe your lack of success comes from trying to educate on YouTube or from Alex Jones.

kurlare:
That, by the way, is my rational basis for disregarding conspiracy theories - we don't need to invent a conspiracy to explain what is happening, there are pre-existing natural forces at work

That may be true, although I don't quite understand where people intellectually come from when they say they disregard or disbelieve conspiracies. Bush committed conspiracy to torture. Cheney committed conspiracy to attack Iraq. We don't have all of the proof, but we have enough to know that they worked in secret to accomplish those tasks and goals. Likewise, the Bilderbergers meet and discuss international policy, relations etc. They drive in and out under heavy guard, they shun the media, black tinted windows (they are scared to be seen) and they try to hide and shift the location. In Canada, they even had agent provocateurs try to frame the protesters as violent radicals. So obviously, by definition, what they are doing is conspiratorial and pretty darn serious, at least in their own opinion.

It is naive to think that people do not conspire. That the progressive are just ideologues who get lucky. These people plan and start wars, and have for several centuries. Anyone who tells you Bush was too dumb to do 9/11 (I'm not saying he did) only has to look at how he got a UN army together to go into Iraq based on total lies and fabrication of evidence. The Downing Street Memos are proof of conspiracy.

The people who go to Bilderberg are the same people who own the mainstream press that under-reports anything controversial or paints government in a bad light. The same people who tried to pretend Ron Paul didn't exist when he was breaking campaign finance records.

I mean, if people want to believe that there are no secrets, and there is no value in mocking and pointing out the elites when they go to their secret meetings, so be it. I just don't like being labeled a kook because I think they are intelligent and cunning, instead of fanatical and clumsy. I'd rather err on overestimating my opponent than underestimating him.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

kurlare — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:14:08 GMT

Are there any people throughout the history of the Bilderberg group that have come out and blown the whistle? I would love to read something written by such a person.

My exposure to these theories of NWO and Bilderberg group have been through Alex Jones videos on YouTube. I have to say that they alone amount to little more than conspiracy theory. No one has any proof, it is all conjecture and paranoia. That being said, I didn't think the movies were without value. It did lead me to start looking into it more myself. After doing my own (unfinished) research, I am currently of the opinion that we are already have a weak one world government, and it is getting stronger as time goes on. The reason I think it is getting stronger isn't because of a calculated effort behind the scenes by bankers, CEOs, heads of state, etc. I think it is getting stronger because people honestly believe that what they are doing is a good thing. It's not as behind doors as Alex Jones seems to indicate, it's actually quite in the open. Keynesian economics, "Global New Deal", global warming treaties, the war on terror - it's all out in the open I don't think you need to resort to some new theory to explain the direction we're going in.

That, by the way, is my rational basis for disregarding conspiracy theories - we don't need to invent a conspiracy to explain what is happening, there are pre-existing natural forces at work. Namely, that progressives are strong idealogues and they believe their ideas will save humanity. They are quite open about it.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

SilentXtarian — Mon, 18 May 2009 00:18:38 GMT

Gah. I didn't mean to make this thread about a new world order theory. Of course the people there meet to discuss policiies and global events. It may also be a meeting grounds for the global elite... but it's illegal for them to do it without the press or with that kind of veil of secrecy hence the conspiracies surrounding the group and the influence and power that the group has (otherwise why would they do it in secret if they weren't discussing evil things)?

The whole reason I brought that up was because you can't really trust for businessmen NOT to be working with the government in some way or another. These people that go to this meeting are congressman, senators, and CEOs, and leaders from other countries. It's not some coffee shop talk place.

All I was saying was that since the politicians are so close to these businessmen that go to these meetings-- that it's hard to call them private companies since these bilderbergers obviously have vested interest in them.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

DanielMuff — Mon, 18 May 2009 00:13:50 GMT

Wow! This thread has been derailed beyond repair. Reminds me of RonPaulForums.com. lol

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

liberty student — Mon, 18 May 2009 00:05:11 GMT

MacFall:

I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers.

I can't believe you bait people by conflating them with anti-semites.

MacFall:
You don't need to go weaving vast webs of theory (because that's all it is) about clandestine organizations who want to rule the world.

This is a strawman. Who weaved a web of theory? And what theory is that? Your strawman or your stereotype?

MacFall:
The Bilderberg organization is a freaking social club.

By their own admission, it is not. They meet to discuss policy, not play cards.

Three questions,

You've made some false assertions. Do you have any real knowledge of Bilderberg?
Do you believe that I am an anti-semite for bringing up Bilderberg?
Since Ron Paul also has issue with the Bilderberg group, does that mean he is an anti-semite obsessed with lizard people and 9/11?

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

wilderness — Sun, 17 May 2009 22:55:24 GMT

MacFall:

I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers. There is plenty of hard and brilliant evidence that the state is evil. You don't need to go weaving vast webs of theory (because that's all it is) about clandestine organizations who want to rule the world. All you're doing is muddying the water. The Bilderberg organization is a freaking social club. The fact that rich and powerful people hang out there is obvious; the fact that some of those people are state affiliates is incidental. Might as well say the Fortune 500 and the Masons are NWO conspirators.

Well public, State officials are not to meet behind closed doors in these kinds of situations it's against their law. But when don't they break their own laws. Other than that, I don't know enough about Bilderberger and such.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

MacFall — Sun, 17 May 2009 22:45:06 GMT

I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers. There is plenty of hard and brilliant evidence that the state is evil. You don't need to go weaving vast webs of theory (because that's all it is) about clandestine organizations who want to rule the world. All you're doing is muddying the water. The Bilderberg organization is a freaking social club. The fact that rich and powerful people hang out there is obvious; the fact that some of those people are state affiliates is incidental. Might as well say the Fortune 500 and the Masons are NWO conspirators.

Re: Criticizing businesses is important to the free market, and, frauds need to be arrested, or, shunned.

wilderness — Sun, 17 May 2009 21:50:43 GMT

liberty student:

MacFall:
Chasing unprovable allegations about the NWO and the Bilderbergers and the Jews and the lizard-people and chemtrails and flouride and mind-control devices and who actually was responsible for 9/11 down labrynthine rabbit holes is a big freaking waste of time.

I wanted to re-post this because you are conflating anti-semitism with me or anyone else who talks about Bilderberg.

Your only capacity for the discussion of alternative views is to strawman and bait racism.

Which goes to show MacFall is actually being the spreader of lies and conspiracy. Cause MacFall just spewed this out of the blue out of MacFall's own mental ghosts. Sad when somebody has to turn to such vices to try to gain control of a situation.