Political Theory

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Thu, 21 May 2009 16:15:43 GMT

Liberty,

"Just do it if you think it is a good idea. Research it, think about it, act on it."

That's what I'm doing here! I am looking to build relationships and learn.

I'm asking for you folks to help. As much as I'd like to just do this ultimately I need the will of the people to bring this to fruition.

I have the cell # for the gentalman at the IMF who wrote INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND Sovereign Wealth Funds—A Work Agenda
Prepared by the Monetary and Capital Markets and Policy Development and Review Departments.

I've spoken with the principal at http://www.turnkeyhedgefunds.com/

"Join the Campaign for Liberty. They are way of ahead of you."

I'll check it out today.

"These days, I am interested in two things. Action and radical opinions"

I'd like to think going into the Vangaurds diehard forum and talking about abolishing the FED is radical. What surprised me is I was not labled a wingnut or laughed off the forum. I was provided the info that lead me to contact those listed above.

whipitgood,

whipitgood:
If you have some free time, I suggest you read Murray Rothbard's 'For A New Liberty.' It'll knock the minarchist right out of you.

I'll take a look there as well.

Thank you both, Lee

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

whipitgood — Thu, 21 May 2009 05:39:53 GMT

If you have some free time, I suggest you read Murray Rothbard's 'For A New Liberty.' It'll knock the minarchist right out of you.

Give it a try and let us know if it changed anything for you.

http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

liberty student — Thu, 21 May 2009 02:47:53 GMT

Lee:
I do not want this to be handled by the gov. I want this to be ran privately. I'm saying we take the power from the gov. gov does not belong in busnesses or the market.

Just do it yourself. If you are successful, your success will attract other people. Everyone is waiting for a group to form or for a consensus to build. Just do it if you think it is a good idea. Research it, think about it, act on it.

Lee:
Right but if our money was being invested privately and a portion of that went to needed gov programs.

Don't pay for anything in government. They are crooks. What is needed for government programs is an endless blackhole, which is why they have spent all of the various funds they were supposed to invest. They have the power of the gun. When they want something, they just take it.

Lee:
That's just it I didn't nore did anyone I know ask for the gov to do jack. The congress is spending billions of our money with bills they have not read and even if they had probably would not understand. We have no transparency not even the havard panel knows what happened to the first 350 B of TARP funds! WTF!

Yeah, the system sucks. Everyone knows it. Now I want to meet some people who are going to do something about it.

Lee:
I am endevuaring to foster a movement.

Join the Campaign for Liberty. They are way of ahead of you.

Lee:
Have you read through the thread on morningstar?

I skimmed it. These days, I am interested in two things. Action and radical opinions. All this reformism stuff bores me.

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Thu, 21 May 2009 01:23:13 GMT

Liberty,

liberty student:
I said empower yourself.

I said thanks for your help

liberty student:

By chasing the power to shrink government, you are asking for big government power.

I do not want this to be handled by the gov. I want this to be ran privately. I'm saying we take the power from the gov. gov does not belong in busnesses or the market.

liberty student:
A good first step would be to take taxes away from the government. Individual market actors can manage money better than the state.

Now we are on the same page!

liberty student:

You're saying that government should be educating and encouraging the private economy in specific ways. I don't know if you know this, but this is a free market website, where we don't want the government educating anyone on anything.

Right but if our money was being invested privately and a portion of that went to needed gov programs. People who would have otherwise not been aware of whats going on in the markets would be far more likely to pay attention. Thereby being better prepared when dealing with their own finances.

liberty student:
Sure, because people bank, they trust in government, and they made bad investments in real estate and retirement planning. In a free market, when you make bad decisions, you have to pay the price.

Right but, when Americans retirements are in pension funds they don't control there is no insentive to educate yourself and be involved. So why should we be paying the price for people who did not maintain there fiduciary responsibilities?

liberty student:

If the average guy produces, controls his consumption and makes wise decisions with his investment, he will be fine. If he lives on credit, doesn't produce value to his employer or customer, and is reckless with his money, he has to fail in a rational world.

As should big gov, car companies, busnesses and banks that are insolvent poorly managed with questionable ethics.

liberty student:

The reason why people are in trouble is because they keep looking to government and collectivism for solutions, instead of understanding that all prosperity and solutions are generated in the private economy by individuals.

That's just it I didn't nore did anyone I know ask for the gov to do jack. The congress is spending billions of our money with bills they have not read and even if they had probably would not understand. We have no transparency not even the havard panel knows what happened to the first 350 B of TARP funds! WTF!

I am endevuaring to foster a movement.

Have you read through the thread on morningstar? It's my understanding that you and they are two opposing schools of thought but, if you read it it would give you a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/forums/p/237722/2652370.aspx#2652370

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

liberty student — Wed, 20 May 2009 20:51:36 GMT

Lee:
I agree that my statement is subjective however, it seems to me that doing nothing and just waiting for a revolution is pointless. Just letting the gov collapse? Come on at what human cost?

I never said anything about waiting. I said empower yourself.

By chasing the power to shrink government, you are asking for big government power.

Lee:
I'm simply saying that a good first step would be to have our tax monies intelligently invested.

A good first step would be to take taxes away from the government. Individual market actors can manage money better than the state.

Lee:
Also this would have the effect of educating citizens by making investing more mainstream and getting a greater portion of the people involved.

You're saying that government should be educating and encouraging the private economy in specific ways. I don't know if you know this, but this is a free market website, where we don't want the government educating anyone on anything.

Lee:
Ha Ha Ha Banks and the gov is out of control. Real estate and retirements have been whipped out.

Sure, because people bank, they trust in government, and they made bad investments in real estate and retirement planning. In a free market, when you make bad decisions, you have to pay the price.

Lee:
Oh but it's the average guys fault that goes to work everyday and carries the weight of his policy makes bad decisions.

If the average guy produces, controls his consumption and makes wise decisions with his investment, he will be fine. If he lives on credit, doesn't produce value to his employer or customer, and is reckless with his money, he has to fail in a rational world.

Lee:
Maybe I should just wait for everything to hit the fan and then we can have a big bloody revolution. Gosh Gee that sounds like fun!!!

This is a strawman. Do nothing or work with government. It's a false paradigm. There is a third option. Do something that doesn't rely on government.

The reason why people are in trouble is because they keep looking to government and collectivism for solutions, instead of understanding that all prosperity and solutions are generated in the private economy by individuals.

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Wed, 20 May 2009 20:43:14 GMT

liberty student,

I appreciate your view.

liberty student:

Governments don't shrink. They get too big, they collapse in revolution, and then there is a new start. No one shrinks government down to "an acceptable size" which is completely subjective and varies from person to person.

I agree that my statement is subjective however, it seems to me that doing nothing and just waiting for a revolution is pointless. Just letting the gov collapse? Come on at what human cost?

liberty student:
Secondly, the power to shrink government is the power to control government. People already have that. They use it to grow government.

Well actually most of us are too busy working to exercise our power to control gov which can only be truly done through legislation. Since our education system is so FUBAR'D 90% of the population don't have a clue how to do it.

liberty student:

No, I am suggesting that you are proposing just another step on the Road to Serfdom as written by FA Hayek. You're proposing that a better plan is the answer, not that the existing paradigm is completely flawed.

I'm not sure we are on the same page here Liberty.

I do agree that the entire system is flawed.

I'm simply saying that a good first step would be to have our tax monies intelligently invested. I believe that this would be something that would initiate changes to a more sustainable system. Also this would have the effect of educating citizens by making investing more mainstream and getting a greater portion of the people involved.

liberty student:
You're proposing socialism.

Investing our money is socialist? Really?

liberty student:

People are broke when they consume more than they produce. It is a problem easily cured by consuming less and producing more.

Ha Ha Ha Banks and the gov is out of control. Real estate and retirements have been whipped out. Oh but it's the average guys fault that goes to work everyday and carries the weight of his policy makes bad decisions.

liberty student:

The American people are not going to save their prosperity with a better plan, or a better government. They will save their prosperity by taking individual action to produce more than they consume aka work hard. Government legislation (aka magic spells) cannot alter reality. A better plan cannot save a fundamentally flawed paradigm.

That's why the thread reads Fundamental changes!

"Legislation will not make changes??" "Changing the flawed system will not help???"

Maybe I should just wait for everything to hit the fan and then we can have a big bloody revolution. Gosh Gee that sounds like fun!!!

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

liberty student — Wed, 20 May 2009 19:18:46 GMT

Lee:

liberty student:
We're generally for minimal or zero government intervention

It is my position that by taking back even if gradually the control of our money from the gov beginning the process of shrinking the gov down to an acceptable size can be realized.

Governments don't shrink. They get too big, they collapse in revolution, and then there is a new start. No one shrinks government down to "an acceptable size" which is completely subjective and varies from person to person.

Secondly, the power to shrink government is the power to control government. People already have that. They use it to grow government.

Lee:

liberty student:
What you're proposing is a better government plan

So you do agree that this if brought to fruition would be is better than our current system

No, I am suggesting that you are proposing just another step on the Road to Serfdom as written by FA Hayek. You're proposing that a better plan is the answer, not that the existing paradigm is completely flawed.

Lee:
It is my belief that the average American is not a war mongering womanizer.

Tell that to the mother whose child has died under bombs with the American flag painted on the side.

Lee:
Where each nation’s sovereign people invest in each other, only then we will work towards and realize our mutual goals of sustainability, multilateral growth and prosperity.

You're proposing socialism.

Lee:
The Average Broke American

People are broke when they consume more than they produce. It is a problem easily cured by consuming less and producing more.

A great line I read online, "No one ever lost their shirt with their sleeves rolled up".

The American people are not going to save their prosperity with a better plan, or a better government. They will save their prosperity by taking individual action to produce more than they consume aka work hard. Government legislation (aka magic spells) cannot alter reality. A better plan cannot save a fundamentally flawed paradigm.

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Tue, 19 May 2009 17:36:32 GMT

Jacob,

Thats what I thought.

I mean where would we be now if SS monies had been being intellegently invested over the past fourty years?

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Jacob Bloom — Tue, 19 May 2009 17:21:43 GMT

Lee,

I already like the sound of it. Sure beats Social Security.

Thanks, Jacob.

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Tue, 19 May 2009 17:08:50 GMT

Jacob,

I would have it run privately.

Best, Lee

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Jacob Bloom — Tue, 19 May 2009 17:02:56 GMT

So basically, we'd all be investing in a big America fund that the government would run? Or have I confused this totally?

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Tue, 19 May 2009 16:56:21 GMT

liberty student,

Thank you please allow me to clairlfy.

liberty student:
We're generally for minimal or zero government intervention

It is my position that by taking back even if gradually the control of our money from the gov beginning the process of shrinking the gov down to an acceptable size can be realized.

liberty student:
What you're proposing is a better government plan

So you do agree that this if brought to fruition would be is better than our current system

liberty student:
If the American government and people were serious about paying off debts, they could liquidate federal land holdings at auction to raise capital, cut services by privatization

It is my belief that the average American is not a war mongering womanizer. That we are being so inundated with this scandal to that scandal kept preoccupied with the inconsequential that the majority are unaware of what we can do to truly plant the seeds of change.

If those who know what can be done do nothing because of this incident or that incident, we will be in for a much harder and longer road globally. America is not perfect the people are not perfect but,

The sooner we realize the only thing of any real value in this life is life itself. Where each nation’s sovereign people invest in each other, only then we will work towards and realize our mutual goals of sustainability, multilateral growth and prosperity.

The Average Broke American

Re: Fundimental changes in the US economy

liberty student — Tue, 19 May 2009 03:29:50 GMT

Lee337:
I'd like to honestly ask for your contributions.

Contributions about what? America will never pay her debts. All of the good intentions and plans won't overcome the political reality that the people will not be satisfied until they are lined up for bread and vodka.

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

-H.L. Mencken

We're generally for minimal or zero government intervention. What you're proposing is a better government plan. Our plan is to get the government out of the way, and let the market work. If the American government and people were serious about paying off debts, they could liquidate federal land holdings at auction to raise capital, cut services by privatization, and turn the American military into a mercenary force and charge Germany, Japan, Korea, Iraq and others for the pleasure of having American troops terrorizing their women.

Fundimental changes in the US economy

Lee — Tue, 19 May 2009 03:02:45 GMT

I started this thread at;

http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/forums/p/237722/2655128.aspx#2655128

Please feel free to read the inbetweens there.

Here is my first post

Disclaimer this is only an idea I had a few months ago, but would like to know what you folks think.

The way I see it we pay taxes the $$ we pay is just spent as a matter of fact more $$ is being spent than we have. It seems to me the gov bubble is doomed to crash just as the RE bubble.

My question is why are our tax dollars not invested and all the programs that are needed funded by those returns?

If this was done correctly and managed by honest people (yea I know Ha Ha) the taxpayers of the US would be the largest investment fund in the world UMM what could we do with that?

Residents could choose to keep any surplus or reinvest as with derivatives. Like how residents of Alaska get $$$ from the pipeline every year.

I expect that the savvier on this site will easily tear this layman’s idea apart, but none the less the only stupid question is the one unasked.

Some 37 posts later this is where we left off.

As for creating an American sovereign wealth fund, I am afraid that's a non-starter: these funds are set up by countries that have a budget surplus--lots of extra money in their coffers. For the United States, it's just the opposite: thanks to Bush's trillion-dollar wars and Obama's trilion-dollar bailouts, we're going to have colossal budget deficits for the forseeable future.

Jagor

LeeACIC

Jagor,

So is it your argument that we are so F'd we should just do nothing?

I’d like to point out that starting something like this even if we had a budget surplus would be no small task. Simply putting the legislation together will likely take years.

Maybe I should just give up and just keep working in the blatantly faulty and unsustainable system that I was given. I mean why should I think a good idea is worth anything?

INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND

Sovereign Wealth Funds—A Work Agenda

http://www.swfinstitute.org/research/imfswfreport.pdf

SWFs offer various economic and financial benefits. In their home countries, they facilitate the saving and intergenerational transfer of proceeds from nonrenewable resources and help reduce boom and bust cycles driven by changes in commodity export prices. They also allow for a greater portfolio diversification and focus on return than traditionally is the case for central-bank-managed reserve assets, thereby potentially reducing (or eliminating) the opportunity costs of reserves holdings. For economies with plentiful foreign reserve assets, greater and prudent diversification reflects sound and responsible asset management. From the viewpoint of international financial markets, SWFs can facilitate a more efficient allocation of revenues from commodity surpluses across countries and enhance market liquidity, including at times of global financial stress.

A better understanding of the role and practices of SWFs could help economies with SWFs to strengthen their domestic policy frameworks and also alleviate concerns and reduce protectionist pressures. In this regard, the IMFC, in its Communiqué of October 20, 2007, welcomed the Fund establishing a dialogue among and with SWFs, with the goal of identifying best practices. The Fund is also analyzing the relevant issues for investors and recipients of SWF flows. A set of best practices could include public governance and accountability principles, with a view to supporting enhanced understanding of SWF operations and investments.

Best, Lee

Prominent recent investments include participations by GIC (Singapore) and ADIA (UAE) in Citigroup;by Temasek (Singapore), KIC (Korea), and KIA (Kuwait) in Merrill Lynch; by CIC (China) in Morgan Stanley; and
by GIC (Singapore) in UBS.

I'd like to honestly ask for your contributions.

Thank you in advance, Lee