Political Theory

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Torsten — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:59:15 GMT

Bogdan:

Glenn Hughes, Eric Voegelin and Christianity, October 1, 2004

http://www.heartland.org/pdf/16499.pdf

I think they removed that file - Do you know of any other link to it?

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:32:04 GMT

I am saying that Rome was the biggest slave-holding society on earth and that to portrait its senate as being based on 'volunary' 'authority' is a gross misrepresentation. I hope that's not controversial, but somehow it seem to be. It may be enlightening to know what people like Spencer,. Bastiat, Molinari and other classical liberals had to say about classical antiquity. I think it wasn't very flattering.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Inquisitor — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:48:10 GMT

I am insisting nothing of the sort. You read too much into what I say, and I am not sure why you are so contrary in general. Rome was far more complicated as an entity than to say it can be reduced into a militaristic, slave-holding society. It underwent many different changes throughout its long existence. At some point in time the senate might've possessed authority of the sort Miklos outlined - I am not familiar with Roman history, hence I refuse to pronounce judgement over a period of history I know little about.

Moreover, Miklos made it clear in what sense he was using the term. What is the point of semantic quibbles? You never disputed his contention that that was the original meaning of the term.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:21:20 GMT

Let's say I want to learn how to fly a plane. I imagine I'd ask a pilot - he's an authority in that area. So I assume that he knows what he's talking about, because, as matter of fact he can fly a plane and I can't. Now, let's say I want to know the origin and purpose of the Fed. Whom should I ask ? My first thought is that economists working at state universities are the ones who know the answer, and will tell me the truth, right ?

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Brainpolice — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:08:04 GMT

In my understanding, authority must face a burden of proof (I.E. ethics), since it is authority making the positive claim. If it does not pass the burden of proof then it is not legitimate.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:02:29 GMT

Oh, come on. Are you saying you don't know that Rome was a militaristic and slave holding society ?

As to non-coercive power, I insist, it's an idea wich doesn't make much sense. What you're referring to is sometimes called 'moral authority', wich again shows that plain authority is something else.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Inquisitor — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:52:32 GMT

I'm not familiar enough with that period of history to say. What I do know is that authority (as in non-coercive power) will continue to exist even after the state is gone. Ostracism and the like depend on it. You may not want to call it authority; fine, but it in effect amounts to what Miklos spoke of.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:46:31 GMT

I thought Miklos defined authority sufficiently well to evade such a response.

But I think he didn't . I also don't see the connection between the Roman oligarchy (the senate) and a free society. Do you ?

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Inquisitor — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:26:31 GMT

I thought Miklos defined authority sufficiently well to evade such a response. Whilst I disagree with him on his interpretation of classical liberalism, I think he does make a good point that we should be careful to just what extent we emphasize the notion of autonomy, for if we take it far enough to mean being free from the facts of reality, as many socialists do, libertarianism will come off as inadequate for its very aim. But then again, few classical liberals make this error.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:25:57 GMT

Miklos:
If one is free from coercion AND lives in a society i.e. not as a hermit, one will naturally exert non-violent social pressure upon others, one will try to convince others of his views and the more resources he has the success he will have in this, the most useful ways of doing things become traditions and the general mindset, worldview, culture of the most successful members of society will become more or less dominant memes. They will have authority.

Authority means to give orders and get people to obey at the point of a gun. To freely copy the actions of individuals regarded as succesful has nothing to do with authority. Also I wouldn't cite the history of a slave holding empire (Rome) as supportive of freedom...

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:12:13 GMT

Indeed. And to say that they were mere legal theorists, and that classical liberalism was not a full blown moral philosophy, as Miklos said, is not accurate.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Brainpolice — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:05:27 GMT

When I hear the term "classical liberal" the names that pop into my mind are along the lines of Herbert Spencer and Frederic Bastiat. Not Rousseau.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:08:31 GMT

Rousseau was certainly not a classical liberal. The credentials of Voltaire, JS Mill and Bentham can also be (easily) challenged. You(Miklos) named the people who were inded forerunners of socialism, but that doesn't mean that classical liberalism leads to socialism. It rather means that the people you mentioned didn't really 'get it' or else were interested in hijacking liberalism for their own conservative purposes.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

maxpot46 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:54:47 GMT

Rothbard's "Ethics of Liberty" builds a moral edifice from reason alone.

Re: How can liberty come about: Voegelin and the Austrian School

Juan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:49:29 GMT

Miklos,

to put it as politely as I can, I think you're not familiar enough with classical liberalism and libertarianism, wich would explain why your views don't make much sense. or don't even recognize standard usage of languange. What's today called 'libertarianism' and what's called 'classical liberalism' are the very same thing, notwithstanding the variety that's expected to be found in such a movement.