Political Theory

Re: Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

sicsempertyrannis — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:05:56 GMT

Individualist:

Thanks for the info on Tyler and Pierce. Do you know a website that will give me more information about these guys than I get from wikipedia?

No, unfortunately. This is mostly coming from information from within my own library. Wikipedia has a fatal bias that renders it nearly unusable, so beware of the spinsters who wrote the articles on some of the figures I mentioned.

majevska:

I think your painting a fairly heterogenous group with too broad a brush. Some abolitionists were Whigs or nationalists, but so were plenty of non-abolitionists at the time. And on the other hand-- William Lloyd Garrison publicly burned a copy of the US constitution and advocated Northern secession. You're right that they were considered fanatics-- but you could say the same for radical libertarians today.

The unfortunate thing is that they for the most part fell under war fever once it swept the whole country. At this point most of them did become nationalists (in the statist sense of the word). Take the case of Moncure Conway; he was pro war at the beginning but later became disgusted with it as it proved much more bloody than he imagined it would be. He tried to convince the CSA to declare intent to abolish slavery in exchange for support of abolitionists... and for this he was ostracized by abolitionists and the North in general.

So I would say you're right about them if you look at pre-war abolitionism as a separate era of abolitionism. War tends to bring out the ugliest in people.

Yes I admit I am generalizing for the OP. And I do tend to separate the abolitionism into two eras. But that some believe that the abolitionists were proto-classical liberals is a myth started in the 1890s.

Re: Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

majevska — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:12:54 GMT

sicsempertyrannis:

Generally speaking, that isnt true. 'Abolitionists' were not considered the same as 'anti slavery'. Specifically, abolitionists were considered to be fanatics (ie John Brown) - and nearly all of them (Spooner is a rare exception) were Whigs or nationalists.

I think your painting a fairly heterogenous group with too broad a brush. Some abolitionists were Whigs or nationalists, but so were plenty of non-abolitionists at the time. And on the other hand-- William Lloyd Garrison publicly burned a copy of the US constitution and advocated Northern secession. You're right that they were considered fanatics-- but you could say the same for radical libertarians today.

The unfortunate thing is that they for the most part fell under war fever once it swept the whole country. At this point most of them did become nationalists (in the statist sense of the word). Take the case of Moncure Conway; he was pro war at the beginning but later became disgusted with it as it proved much more bloody than he imagined it would be. He tried to convince the CSA to declare intent to abolish slavery in exchange for support of abolitionists... and for this he was ostracized by abolitionists and the North in general.

So I would say you're right about them if you look at pre-war abolitionism as a separate era of abolitionism. War tends to bring out the ugliest in people.

Re: Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

Individualist — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:41:53 GMT

sicsempertyrannis:

Well, John Tyler owned slaves at his 'Sherwood Forest' plantation in Virginia, so I dont think he would count. Pierce seemed to be simply against the war and supportive of his friend Jefferson Davis (his former secretary of war), not for secession per se.

Better examples might be the Mayor of Baltimore George W Brown (Maryland was still considered Southern then though), Senator Jesse Bright of Indiana (only northern senator to be expelled for supporting the CSA) and of course Clement Vallandigham of Ohio. There were other examples, IIRC a few dozen state representatives were elected on anti-war platforms in IL, IN, OH and NY.

Thanks for the info on Tyler and Pierce. Do you know a website that will give me more information about these guys than I get from wikipedia?

Re: Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

sicsempertyrannis — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:23:23 GMT

Taras Smereka:

Most of the abolitionists were liberals or generally sided with the democrats at the time, as they tended to agree with the democrats on issues like taxes and states' rights (its a no brainer for people who are against slavery to also be against federal taxes). Off the top of my head Henry David Thoreau would fit in the category though I think he died before Lincoln came into office (might be wrong about that).

Generally speaking, that isnt true. 'Abolitionists' were not considered the same as 'anti slavery'. Specifically, abolitionists were considered to be fanatics (ie John Brown) - and nearly all of them (Spooner is a rare exception) were Whigs or nationalists.

Re: Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

Taras Smereka — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:15:45 GMT

Most of the abolitionists were liberals or generally sided with the democrats at the time, as they tended to agree with the democrats on issues like taxes and states' rights (its a no brainer for people who are against slavery to also be against federal taxes). Off the top of my head Henry David Thoreau would fit in the category though I think he died before Lincoln came into office (might be wrong about that).

Re: Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

sicsempertyrannis — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:11:22 GMT

Well, John Tyler owned slaves at his 'Sherwood Forest' plantation in Virginia, so I dont think he would count. Pierce seemed to be simply against the war and supportive of his friend Jefferson Davis (his former secretary of war), not for secession per se.

Better examples might be the Mayor of Baltimore George W Brown (Maryland was still considered Southern then though), Senator Jesse Bright of Indiana (only northern senator to be expelled for supporting the CSA) and of course Clement Vallandigham of Ohio. There were other examples, IIRC a few dozen state representatives were elected on anti-war platforms in IL, IN, OH and NY.

Anti-slavery, pro-secession antebellum figures?

Individualist — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:37:34 GMT

Were there any, especially well-known, anti-slavery, pro-secession, figures before the War for Southern Independence?

I know of Lysander Spooner. Any others, especially political figures? I don't think Thomas Jefferson or John Floyd count. What about John Tyler or Franklin Pierce?