Political Theory

Re: Islam and liberty

abskebabs — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:10:48 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

well..... there's a civil war going on in the Islamic world. if we are calling people on both sides of the divide with the same label, we will find it hard to understand these people

True, it's probably similiar to lumping together Orthodox and Reformist Jews, or for a weaker comparison; Protestants and Catholics.

Re: Islam and liberty

nirgrahamUK — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:29:38 GMT

well..... there's a civil war going on in the Islamic world. if we are calling people on both sides of the divide with the same label, we will find it hard to understand these people

Re: Islam and liberty

abskebabs — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:27:16 GMT

Libertyandlife:

Islam is against the idea of imperialism and conquest. Muhammad (as) himself was a trader.

Didn't he later become a warlord however? The reason I ask is because as far as I know the peaceful verses of the Quran, like to treat well the "people of the book" are later abrogated by violent verses instructing intolerance and murder of the same group who do not submit to the will of Islam, not to mention the treatment of "idolaters." To what extent would you say this is true, and why?

This is not to say the Bible in comparison does not have mutually conflicting and contradictory tolerant and intolerant passages either, just this specific context in the Quran I find a cause for concern. Indeed I find it interesting that Islam became a majority religion via trade and cultural influence in areas of South East Asia like Indonesia and Malaysia, while in areas it conquered and for a time violently subjugated like India; it never achieved the same success.

Re: Islam and liberty

William — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:03:24 GMT

As with most history, it may be best to study Islam for the sake of studying Islam (meaning with no "libertarian" or other concerns, while starting with Islamic primary sources instead of reading bastardized modern European works.

While I am no expert in Islam, if you wish for starting material, let me know and I will try to provide a small list to the best of my ability.

Re: Islam and liberty

William — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:37:54 GMT

I would hardly consider scholars such as Ibn Khaldun, or Ibn Sina (Avicenna) hampers to liberty. Nor would I consider many of the theological thought (when compared to various other practices of the place and time) negative to liberty. "Islam" and the history of the Near East from the 600's - 1600's is a complex and time consuming study. To make such broad questions, is to most likley create bad answers. Islam may not be as unified a religion, culture, or theology as you suspect.

Re: Islam and liberty

Zach_the_Lizard — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:35:51 GMT

Libertyandlife:

Islam is against the idea of imperialism and conquest. Muhammad (as) himself was a trader.

And that is why he himself led the armies of Islam on the conquest of the Arabian peninsula and expelled all non-Muslims.

Libertyandlife:

By the way, Islamic tax is implemented by a Muslims themselves, no state or tax collector knocking on your door, it's part of being a practicing Muslim.

Tell that to Muhammad, who made many pay taxes to his theocratic state, as well as forcing people to pay the Zakat and entering into military slavery.

Re: Islam and liberty

Libertyandlife — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:53:41 GMT

As a Muslim, I can say my religious beliefs led me to Libertarianism. Strong belief in self ownership, free markets, self rule, the idea that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256), strong beliefs against tyranny, and the lack of hierarchy in the religion, I cannot say being Muslim and libertarian is a coincidence. Not only are they compatible, many of the beliefs are shared, I see a strong connection. I simply want to live my life the way I want to, and others to do the same.

http://reason.com/archives/2003/07/28/revealed-libertarianism

http://www.minaret.org/

Islam is against the idea of imperialism and conquest. Muhammad (as) himself was a trader.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)

"He who has been a ruler over ten people will be brought shackled on the Day of Resurrection, until the justice (by which he ruled) loosens his chains or tyranny brings him to destruction." Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1037

By the way, Islamic tax is implemented by a Muslims themselves, no state or tax collector knocking on your door, it's part of being a practicing Muslim.

Re: Islam and liberty

Sukrit — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:25:52 GMT

Apparently, Islam is compatible with free-market principles:

Quran verses, teachings of Prophet Muhammad and his successors, ideas of esteemed Islamic scholars indicate Islamic tradition, unlike what we observe today, can be very compatible with free market economy. In this article, I illustrate this compatibility and then discuss the ways which might be used to flourish market-oriented economy.

Re: Islam and liberty

Marko — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:54:29 GMT

auctionguy10:

But honestly, I don't feel that you really care about what I've said- you like the others that have posted have an agenda to de-value Islam and muslims into barbarians, and if that's what you wanna do you'll find some way to do it here or there.

Yes and if I critique Communism it must mean I hate the Russians.

Islam and Moslems are not interchangeable terms. I resent the acussation. Islam is pretty bad as far as ideologies go. Luckily, most Moslems, now as in the past, do not take it all that seriously or make an effort to concentrate on the better parts. Akin to the Soviets` relation to Communism post-Stalin. I need no more to misrepresent Islam to deflect acussations of anti-Moslem chauvinism than I need to misrepresent Communism to deflect acussations of anti-Soviet chauvinism.

Re: Islam and liberty

auctionguy10 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:06:12 GMT

Zach_the_Lizard:

auctionguy10:
But also- marriage doesn't mean sex. The reason a muslim may have more than one wife for example is if he wishes to protect a poor woman- he would marry her so that she can live in her house.(Although if any women disagree to this, he is not allowed to)

Yes, it is not necessary to consummate a marriage immediately. However, this marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9. Muhammad had a bunch of wives, more than is allowed to any other muslim. He had 13 wives.

The only evidence of that marriage or consummation is some books of hadith, which contradict Quran because a young girl is nowhere near capable to make any of the mature decisions that you need to when getting married, looking at if mutual attraction is involved, the dowry to be received, etc.. Quran also mentions more than once that the only message and "hadith" that people can rely on as the truth is Quran itself. Marriage is taken seriously in Quran- there is no set age for marriage, but its clearly established that it can only happen when maturity is achieved.

But honestly, I don't feel that you really care about what I've said- you like the others that have posted have an agenda to de-value Islam and muslims into barbarians, and if that's what you wanna do you'll find some way to do it here or there.

Re: Islam and liberty

auctionguy10 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:56:17 GMT

Arvin:

Yes, indeed, this is an important fact. The sand barbarians basically went out to plunder, rape and pillage the more civilized peoples in the area in the name of Allah, and so their religion reflects that.

What do you know about Islamic expansion besides that it happened? Throw some facts this way about the plundering, raping, and pillaging that happened when they took control of Andalusia.

Re: Islam and liberty

auctionguy10 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:54:58 GMT

Hard Rain:

Esuric:
The Islamic scripture is 99.9% about peace, love, and brotherhood.

That statement is something I would challenge. In terms of scripture, looking at the fundamentals such as the Qur'an and Hadith, one can see that verses and accounts describing, glorifying and commanding the violent subjugation of non-believers are overflowing in the texts. The following is a response I wrote to a person who was enquiring about Islam with similar misconceptions (that the fundamental tenants of Islam are based on peace):

I would suggest further research into the mechanics of understanding the Qur'an. The view you have purported is very naive in the context of abrogation (al-naskh wa al-mansukh) and the actual words and deeds of Mohammed.

The Qur'an cannot merely be read at face value without its companions the Hadith (oral traditions relating to the words and deeds of Muhammad) and the Sira (traditional Muslim biographies of Muhammad). The Qur'an was not compiled chronologically and it has been left to scholars to interpret a timeline of the verses based on information from, among others but mostly, the Hadith and the Sira.

The Quran has to be read at face value. Most hadith(like the ones by Bukhari) were recorded well 200 years after Muhammad's death and many hadith do not even make any sense when taken together with the Quran- and are very very off sounding when you compare the two. The idea of "abrogation" in Quran also has to be rejected outright. http://www.submission.org/abrogation.html . The many examples you give of war- you use them without including the fact that the Quran as a whole is taken together. So when it is said to fight the disbelievers, it is ONLY in defense, at all times.

[8:61.3] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them , GOD loves the righteous.
[4:90] …if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

Fighting for the cause of allah means to fight for justice- to never accept persecution...

[4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."

Nowhere in the Quran will you find it condoning violence and death just for the sake of violence and death- nor does it say that killing people who attend schools or killing women and children is what we should strive for. Its talking about a defensive war against oppressors- in "war" against an aggressor you are fierce with them in battle.

I do have to ask what translation you are using- because some quotes you posted are very poorly translated and has heavy use of parenthesis additions. For example 8:39 should read: "You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone. If they refrain from aggression, then GOD is fully Seer of everything they do." or "And fight them until persecution is no more, and you may devote religion all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do."

I suggest you take a look at the website I posted about earlier.

Re: Islam and liberty

Arvin — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:08:39 GMT

Vitor:

Islam expansion was mostly by war and conquest since the very beginning, and that was not the case of early christianity

Yes, indeed, this is an important fact. The sand barbarians basically went out to plunder, rape and pillage the more civilized peoples in the area in the name of Allah, and so their religion reflects that.

Re: Islam and liberty

Vitor — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:06:39 GMT

Islam expansion was mostly by war and conquest since the very beginning, and that was not the case of early christianity

Re: Islam and liberty

Zach_the_Lizard — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:38:42 GMT

auctionguy10:
But also- marriage doesn't mean sex. The reason a muslim may have more than one wife for example is if he wishes to protect a poor woman- he would marry her so that she can live in her house.(Although if any women disagree to this, he is not allowed to)

Yes, it is not necessary to consummate a marriage immediately. However, this marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9. Muhammad had a bunch of wives, more than is allowed to any other muslim. He had 13 wives. As Hard Rain has done, I could quote 16 bajillion cases of violence in the Quran itself, if you don't feel inclined to accept craziness from the hadith. Guess he wouldn't be a pedophile then, just a crazed mass murderer.