Political Theory

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Clayton — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:54:03 GMT

I can't back up the fact that religion as we discuss it (and not good, the left, libertarianism, or whatever) is a dead horse and you may be correct. I just don't see it. I don't see theists who matter,

Theism is a dogma. Religion is much more than dogma. In fact, in Eastern orthodox and Islam, the dogma is far less important than ritual. Every man has his own ideas about God (though certain ideas are prohibited from being expressed) but what God really wants is your daily devotion. Western religions have placed much more emphasis on dogma and have suffered badly as religious dogma has taken beating after beating from scientific and philosophical progress.

and I don't see it in a position to matter over culture outside increasingly retreating local pockets in America. My guess is it is pretty much gone in W Europe and most of E Europe already.

What's funny is that is so true and so not true at the same time. Certainly, the masses have become almost completely irreligious. Church attendance is at all-time lows and so on. But almost every politician without exception goes to some church or another. Wealthy families, contrary to popular belief, tend to have a religious affiliation, even if individuals within the family are irreligious. Basically, all the people who matter still go to church while the clubbers and cokeheads are sleeping off their all-nighter on Sunday morning.

And my guess is this is not only the effect of loopy leftism (which is probably more openly hostile to religion) but the liberal, technocratic, market mentality as wel (which just simply doesn't care about religion and due to that, it fades away due to actual life demonstrations and a clarity as to what actual human behavior is doing).

Look, I'm not disagreeing with you on the irrelevancy of theological dogma. It really doesn't matter anymore if you believe Justification is by Faith Alone or by Faith and Works. But it does matter whether you go to church and what church you belong to. I'm saying this as someone who does not go to church.

Clayton -

Re: Libertarians and Religion

liberty student — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:51:27 GMT

Clayton:
By the way, this theory is pretty much my own, I haven't seen anything in the literature to substantiate it. I wish someone would study it since I find the subject fascinating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoQ6vQf3X6Q

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Clayton — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:44:12 GMT

Mtn Dew:

The Church and state are certainly not involved in an "incestuous" relationship that is stronger than ever. Such a statement denotes a lack of historical understanding as well as a distorted view of current events. The Roman Catholic Church is against just about every war that the west is waging (Iraq/Afghanistan/etc). If they had such a relationship those wars would not be going on right now.

The Church has very little power in meaningful political decisions. I think in general this is a good thing. Unfortunately they don't have as much power in terms of encouraging moral decision making.

I say this as a Catholic convert working in a private Catholic school run by Dominica sisters.

Well, the days when the Pope could issue a public edict to a subordinate monarch are long gone. Anglicanism (breakaway of the English monarch) and Protestantism (breakaway of the German lords) ensured that and the French revolution put the finishing garnish on it. My point is that the idea that the world is becoming "religionless" is nonsense. Religion did not originate in dogma. That dogmatism is clearly dying the world over says nothing about the life-expectancy of religion. The religious impulse is clearly rooted in our biology (there is no human culture that is not religious) and it's not going anywhere. I think this longevity is here to stay because religion plays a crucial role in mate selection, especially among the wealthy and influential. A wealthy man doesn't want his daughter marrying a bum off the street who will end up living on his dime (failing to provide for his wife to the standard of living she is used to receiving from her father), neither does he want his sons marrying a woman whose family is poor and liable to angle for the inheritance after his death, transferring the family wealth out of his name and into the name of his in-laws, or just squandering it altogether. "You can only marry another Catholic" or "You can only marry another Lutheran" provides a minimal safety-net in this regard and plenty of room for negotiation between parent and child, "Well, yes, he's Catholic but his parents are Lutheran, do you think he's really reliable? Maybe this is just a conversion of convenience"... you get the idea and you should know what I'm talking about if you're working in a Catholic school.

By the way, this theory is pretty much my own, I haven't seen anything in the literature to substantiate it. I wish someone would study it since I find the subject fascinating. I will go a little further and suggest that religion is actually a form of "social technology" (human social organization that facilitates production) and that some of the forces behind secularization actually have sinister intent. The purpose of those at the pinnacles of power who understand the role that religion plays in family cohesion have an interest in sabotaging the family and, therefore, religion. How many atheist pot-lucks have you been to? I'm not saying that you have to have fairy-tale books of gods and demons to have family cohesion, that's just the way that it's come about. Religion, in whatever form, plays a crucial role in family cohesion which, in turn, plays a crucial role in maintaining the private property rights of commoners vis-a-vis the expropriatory ends of rulers. Therefore, rulers have an interest in sabotaging religion. This shouldn't be too shocking seeing that the entire Middle Ages of Europe was essentially a tug-of-war between the Pope (religious power) and the monarchs (secular power).

Clayton -

Re: Libertarians and Religion

William — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:09:23 GMT

I don't think the Queen of England is a casual Anglican.

Maybe, but she is also old hat. She is only one or two generations removed from when religion was completly dead in the water to begin with, and was still somewhat a part of mainstream non intellectual thought. That is over with now.

Try being charged in a "secular" court of law with child neglect as a Satanist or atheist and contrast that with being charged with child neglect as a devout Roman Catholic or Mormon who is known for his/her devotion to God.

Well satanist, scientologists, or whatever are well know jokes that were never taken seriously or were never a part of a polite cosmopolitan society that matters anywhere so that is a big difference. If you want to be foolish enough to chose a losing position

on a patently false idea that is out of line with most peoples obviously false ideas and conflict with overwhelming customs, go for it but what the hell would you expect to happen?

I can't back up the fact that religion as we discuss it (and not good, the left, libertarianism, or whatever) is a dead horse and you may be correct. I just don't see it. I don't see theists who matter, and I don't see it in a position to matter over culture outside increasingly retreating local pockets in America. My guess is it is pretty much gone in W Europe and most of E Europe already. And my guess is this is not only the effect of loopy leftism (which is probably more openly hostile to religion) but the liberal, technocratic, market mentality as wel (which just simply doesn't care about religion and due to that, it fades away due to actual life demonstrations and a clarity as to what actual human behavior is doing).

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Mtn Dew — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:06:58 GMT

Most folks that call themselves Catholics make no attempt to live as such.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

James — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:05:16 GMT

I get the impression that the world's billion Catholics aren't really on the same page about much politically, but their need to feel and appear unified far outweighs such concerns.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Mtn Dew — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:49:16 GMT

The Church and state are certainly not involved in an "incestuous" relationship that is stronger than ever. Such a statement denotes a lack of historical understanding as well as a distorted view of current events. The Roman Catholic Church is against just about every war that the west is waging (Iraq/Afghanistan/etc). If they had such a relationship those wars would not be going on right now.

The Church has very little power in meaningful political decisions. I think in general this is a good thing. Unfortunately they don't have as much power in terms of encouraging moral decision making.

I say this as a Catholic convert working in a private Catholic school run by Dominica sisters.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Clayton — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:32:50 GMT

I don't think the Queen of England is a casual Anglican. Certain European superstitions are certainly dead - flat earth, geocentrism, Young Earth, etc. But religion itself is stronger than ever. Try being charged in a "secular" court of law with child neglect as a Satanist or atheist and contrast that with being charged with child neglect as a devout Roman Catholic or Mormon who is known for his/her devotion to God. That should give you a hint as to why religion is so powerful.

Clayton -

Re: Libertarians and Religion

William — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:40:36 GMT

I wouldn't be surprised if it is already done in. It isn't even a part of polite bourgoise society in any place other than a few pockets in America, that are of tertiary importants as to how culture will evolve. It is possible that we just haven't seen the full effects of it yet, because we are in the middle of the eye of the hurricane so to speak.

I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

MrSchnapps — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:31:57 GMT

It will be gone in all relevant thought within a generation or two (I am not concerning myself with 2nd or 3rd world countries, as there is no need) as it is no longer of any use.

Not to be especially picky or anything, but that's exactly what has been said about each generation since the Enlightenment.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:20:24 GMT

Libertyandlife:

Great OP, totally agree.

I was a libertarian way before I lost my religion, and was just as consistent then.

Haha, yeah it is... this was one of my first posts :P (maybe "the" first)

Re: Libertarians and Religion

William — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 03:56:46 GMT

1) Helping libertarianism progress is probably a form of religion. The reality is libertarianism (wha ever that may mean) can only concern itself and will stop at nothing to help libertarianism progress. As you, weather or not you admit it or not will do the same for yourself (whatever that may mean). The minute you trick yourself otherwise (which most people do), it gets a bit odd

2) Classical religion has pretty much been called out and is no longer relevant to think about, other than for an ego boost by a teenage atheist to make themselves seem intellectually superior at a low cost. It will be gone in all relevant thought within a generation or two (I am not concerning myself with 2nd or 3rd world countries, as there is no need) as it is no longer of any use.

3) What will still exist will be the other religions; Humanity, The Good Cause, "for the children" maybe even the nation (the last piece of relevency for the right), etc. That is the one you ought to concern yourself with, let the past bury itself and move on.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Clayton — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 03:24:51 GMT

Back when church and state were involved

The two have never been more incestuously involved than they are today.

Clayton -

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Libertyandlife — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 03:04:06 GMT

Great OP, totally agree.

I was a libertarian way before I lost my religion, and was just as consistent then.

EDIT: Lol, didn't know this was an old thread. Just as old self said.

Re: Libertarians and Religion

Laotzu del Zinn — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 23:27:35 GMT

that sounds like a very modern analogy for deism.