Political Theory

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

Juan — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:49:40 GMT

We should be making laws ourselves

What kind of 'law' ? Don't you subscribe to natural law ?

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

nirgrahamUK — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:42:32 GMT

in a 'direct' 'democracy'

1)what issues are voted on? and who decides that?

2)what does a vote mean? what significance does a vote have? (in other words, how does it differ from merely advertising your position on subject X by telling people about it)?

3) are private firms that deliver services 'allowed'? if so, i can have my market solution. if not, justify that.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

ama gi — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:14:57 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
its not about people voting making right or wrong decisions in who gets their vote. its that the very act of granting a monopoly of power and legitimacy to people who win votes is retarded.

Pardon?

When did I say that we should give power to people who win votes?

I said NOTHING OF THE SORT. The very point of direct democracy is not putting politicians, judges, or any other professional busybodies in charge. We should be making laws ourselves, instead of having somebody else make them for us.

You, on the other hand, want to set up a form of representative government by putting private firms in charge. The problem with any form of representative government is that the "representatives" are capable of engaging in all kinds of corruption for as long as their actions remain undiscovered and unproven.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

filc — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:17:50 GMT

ama gi:

ama gi -"we should all be dictators-for-life"

nir g -"people just can't vote right and need to hire professionals to make decisions on their behalf"

Ama gi - "We should all use coercion against each other"

Nir g - "We should all deal with our own matters, desires, wants, needs through a market"

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

nirgrahamUK — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:52:53 GMT

its not about people voting making right or wrong decisions in who gets their vote. its that the very act of granting a monopoly of power and legitimacy to people who win votes is retarded. whereas if it was possible to 'vote' and grant people your support for their being a competitive provider of power with a particular legitimacy that you grant them over a particular class of dealings given certain conditions (or not if you dont support) then that would be great. such a system is the market system.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

ama gi — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:48:30 GMT

ama gi -"we should all be dictators-for-life"

nir g -"people just can't vote right and need to hire professionals to make decisions on their behalf"

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

DanielMuff — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:17:42 GMT

Yes, that would be the fallacy of the final arbitrator.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

AJ — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:13:14 GMT

ama gi:
There needs to be a supreme arbiter that can resolve property disputes; otherwise a socio-economic system based on property fails.

ALERT:

"There needs to be a supreme arbiter for each dispute." (Could be different arbiters for different disputes, but every dispute does have one supreme arbiter.)

does not imply

"There needs to be ONE supreme arbiter for ALL disputes." (All disputes have the same supreme arbiter.)

(If you've studied calculus, you'll recognize this logical distinction as the critical one for understanding the concept of a limit.)

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

Sage — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:48:47 GMT

ama gi:
Right. There needs to be a supreme arbiter that can resolve property disputes; otherwise a socio-economic system based on property fails.

I take it you haven't read the greatest article on market anarchism ever written, Roderick Long's "Market Anarchism as Constitutionalism"?

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

nirgrahamUK — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:39:30 GMT

ama gi -" we need a dictator-for-life that we all chose"

nir g -"consumer sovereignty in the justice market"

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

tacoface — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:32:46 GMT

Are you retarded?

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

ama gi — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:29:53 GMT

laminustacitus:
Who is the supreme arbiter who outlaws PDAs? Furthermore, why would PDAs have to enforce the NAP, and libertarian ethics as opposed to, for the sake of example, Sharia law to remain lawful(I don't even understand how PDAs can be "lawful" because they essentially get to define their own laws to enforce) PDAs?

Right. There needs to be a supreme arbiter that can resolve property disputes; otherwise a socio-economic system based on property fails.

And, for the sake of freedom, that supreme arbiter needs to be based on majority consensus, rather than imposed on us against our will.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

Sage — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:09:07 GMT

laminustacitus:
Overall, it would be a lot easier to prove my post unsound by simply giving a single example of a true anarcho-capitalist society lasting. Keep in mind, I do not deny that such systems can exist, really I deny that they can exist, and prove a stable social framework for an extended period of time.

Another point to remember is that anarchy is omnipresent: every social system must have at least some anarchic relationships. For example, different governments are in a state of international anarchy, the agents of a government are in a state of anarchy vis-à-vis each other, etc. So if any stable social framework is possible at all, then it must be possible under anarchy. On this see Cuzán and Plauché.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

Sage — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:45:39 GMT

laminustacitus:
Polycentric authority, even polycentric legal authority, does not equal anarcho-capitalist. If that were so, most of European history prior to the Reformation would be anarcho-capitalist. Furthermore, polycentric authority can exist within a state, as shown by Elinor Ostrom's work on the preservation of common pool resources.

I agree with this. Anarchy/polycentrism need not be libertarian. And I would argue that the State is a polycentric order (there's no government ruling over the politicians).

laminustacitus:
This is not a historical analysis, rather it is a purely theoretical one.

Section 4 (p.17-41) is a documentation of the historical evidence.

laminustacitus:
Overall, it would be a lot easier to prove my post unsound by simply giving a single example of a true anarcho-capitalist society lasting.

No such evidence exists: there has never been a perfectly libertarian market anarchy. But there is evidence of anarchies existing with varying degrees of libertarianness. I take the historical evidence to merely show that stateless societies work, and that they can be desirable. Moreover, I don't think the historical evidence alone is conclusive; the theoretical arguments are primary, whereas historical evidence is only illustrative.

laminustacitus:
If my argument is wrong, then it is not invalid, rather it is unsound.

Correct, sir. I was thinking of this.

laminustacitus:
If there is one big reason for which I reject market-anarchy, it is for the fact that it essentially demands that a system be applied to a society, without any regard for the institutions at play, thus rejecting the only proven method of social change: gradual piecemeal change.

I agree, market anarchy would be unappealing if it actually required this. But I see no reason to think that it does.

Remember that demanding radical change is not the same thing as actual radical change. W.L. Garrison: "Urge immediate abolition as earnestly as we may, it will, alas! be gradual abolition in the end. We have never said that slavery would be overthrown by a single blow; that it ought to be, we shall always contend." I don't see that being a radical abolitionist entails the rejection of gradual piecemeal change. As Long writes:

[T]he swiftness of the process, the radicalness of the final goal, and the degree of explicitness about the final goal, are three different things. The process many market anarchists advocate is one of “building new institutions within the shell of the old,” a gradual process of replacement and education rather than an overnight revolution. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn't point explicitly to the desirability of our intended final goal as part of our propaganda to get people involved in working toward it.

So being a radical (i.e. focusing on the root, rather than symptoms) does not necessarily entail immediate social change. In a tradeoff between swiftness and effectiveness, I would choose the latter. See also my post here.

Do you see yourself as making a strategic objection to market anarchism? That is, you accept that MA is the most just and efficient society, but think that it would be difficult or impossible to implement?

laminustacitus:
When we are in a day in which market-anarchy is a viable alternative, I might become one, but it is not a viable alternative in today's situation.

But the viability of market anarchism is not some independent variable outside of our control. Rather, it is directly related to our efforts in educating people and building alternative institutions. So why not become a market anarchist and work toward making it a viable alternative? Join us! Your present attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy: anarchism is not a viable alternative, so I won't become one; but not becoming an anarchist is what prevents it from being a viable alternative!

John McCain said that "if you’re disappointed with the mistakes of government, join its ranks and work to correct them." This argument doesn't work for government, because government's flaws cannot be corrected, but it does work for the libertarian movement: if you're disappointed with the libertarian movement, join us and help make it better.

Re: why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

liberty student — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:04:04 GMT

laminustacitus:

liberty student:

I think Lam indicated before that he likes to receive subsidies and that he is entitled to them by nature of the work he does.

Because throwing vague, petty ad hominem insults around really does prove your argument. Please grow up, and stop this immature mud-slinging.

I wasn't aware you were against government subsidies. I am pretty sure you have defended them here before. Specifically for the funding of science IIRC. I'd look for sources but the forum search doesn't work.

Do you oppose public funding of science and not seek any grants for your own work?