Political Theory

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Andrew Cain — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:20:10 GMT

Mike:

The real class struggle is between the political class and the productive class. Workers and capitalists are on the same team, even if they don't always realize it. Their interests coincide, and what policies advance the one also advance the other.

Adolphe Blanqui:

In all the revolutions, there have always been but two parties opposing each other; that of the people who wish to live by their own labor, and that of those who would live by the labor of others…. Patricians and plebeians, slaves and freemen, guelphs and ghibellines, red roses and white roses, cavaliers and roundheads, liberals and serviles, are only varieties of the same species.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Mike — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:45:14 GMT

The real class struggle is between the political class and the productive class. Workers and capitalists are on the same team, even if they don't always realize it. Their interests coincide, and what policies advance the one also advance the other.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Knight_of_BAAWA — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:24:56 GMT

It's always about assigning blame to someone else because you (the whiner-in-question, that is, not Bert) couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. It must be the person with a penny more than you. Or the blacks. Or the jews. It's always Someone Else's Fault. Someone Else Who Has More Than You.

If you ever really want to watch a commie go rabid-foaming mad and pout, just let the commie know that s/he is simply jealous of those with a penny more. Watch the fireworks. It's fun knowing you've pinpointed their rage.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Sieben — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:32:15 GMT

Don't the proletariats own a lot more now than they did back then? Is my daily lifestyle really so much different from Bill Gates? We both get enough food, stay warm, have friends, have entertainment, have shelter... So what if he eats a $50 steak every night? It's not *that* big a deal.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

hugolp — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:45:44 GMT

And if you want even more ambiguity ask him what it is "means of production". Ask him if the computer I have at home is a mean of production or not.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Andrew Cain — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:53:04 GMT

The facade of Marxist 'Class Struggle'

It seems like whenever someone brings up a topic concerning Marxism, I can dig up old posts about it.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Kakugo — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:43:23 GMT

Do not underestimate the lasting effects of Marxism.

I personally believe there's a class struggle going on, and that's an all out war against the middle class waged by top classes with full back up from the plebs. Yes, I come from the left end of the political spectrum in case you haven't noticed...

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Jon Irenicus — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:07:53 GMT

It's a crude generalisation... but the latte-sipping, iPhone brandishing dimwits tend to be the "cool" kids who try to one-up their peers by being "socially responsible" by being left-liberal (i.e. hugely irresponsible), probably because doing that is in line with that the propagandist in charge of 'educating' them taught them is the 'accepted' thing to believe &c. The true commies i.e. those you cannot convert stem from envy mostly imo. We're all envious, some people just turn it into a religion of hatred.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Bert — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:02:09 GMT

Jon Irenicus:

Envy, yeah, look for the ugliest kid in class, there's your commie.

When I look back to high school this hypothesis proves correct.

Re: There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Jon Irenicus — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:00:06 GMT

Envy, yeah, look for the ugliest kid in class, there's your commie.

There's a class struggle - are you in the right class?

Bert — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 06:57:59 GMT

More online nonsense led to this. I'm not going to post in full.

Them: Class struggle is liberation.

Me: That would make sense if you could objectively define a rigid class grid. I wonder which class I'm in...

Them: Working class and capitalists antagonizing. Then we have the wavering petite bourgeoisie and the lumpen proletariat.

Working class - no means of production just sell ability to work.
Capitalists - own the means of production (80% of Canadian economy).
Petite bourgeois - small scale farmers employing no one, or small scale business owners.
Lumpens - gangsters, pimps, prostitutes, homeless people etc.

This led me to think of something I have not really thought of. Not all of them, but is the communist envious of the ownership of production or the economic status? If I go by this criteria, you are not a capitalist unless you own the means of production, and only the means of production. That all levels of work in between are still not capitalist.

Also, under that, an engineer who makes 250,000+ a year is still "working class" and in the same league with a janitor. While that engineer doesn't own the "means of production" he is designing what could be produced. If you follow a trail of the means of production, to produce a product might be production, but to produce the products to produce those products that produce products in themselves is a trail of production. If a welder helps build a ship is he part of the owners of production in producing the product, or a working class laborer? (Even though if you're a good enough welder you can make 250,000+)