Political Theory

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Dennis Lee Wilson — Sat, 03 May 2008 00:48:10 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:

.... but let's say I want to buy land. How do I make sure that the person selling me the land actually owns it?

That problem exists today, and the solution under anarchy would probably be the same as it is now. Hire a Title Insurance agency to validate and insure the title to the property.

Stranger:
How exactly does an overlapping claim arise?

I owned some mountain property in Arizona that had overlapping claims. These claims arose from mining claims that were quickly made and not accurately established. (Rugged terrain is especially prone to inaccurate boundary lines). When the minining claims were converted to "regular", surveyed property, the overlapping claims were resolved by earliest registration date.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Ego — Sat, 03 May 2008 00:36:19 GMT

Is there a central database regarding who owns money? Or TVs? Or shoes?

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Dennis Lee Wilson — Sat, 03 May 2008 00:31:10 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:

I'm not sure I understand. Land ownership is usually very precise. So if there is no central archive of who owns what, how do you determine one claim to be valid and one to be invalid? Especially in situations where the precise limits of the owned land are concerned?

Even today there is no "central archive". In Arizona (where I live) and in most other states that I know, all land ownership records are maintained at the county level, not at the state or federal level.

When we are finally rid of government rulers, I image that the numerous Title Insurance agencies will homestead the county records, probably thru a mutually owned subsidiary. Title Insurance agencies would then probably continue to insure land titles and utilize and update (for a fee as they do today) the "central" database maintained by the subsidiary.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Mark B. — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:52:17 GMT

It is a much easier issue concerning land that has already been platted and titled by previous statist land bureaus. Successor private defense agencies are pretty much bound by existing records.

The problem will be with all the unclaimed land held by the government by fiat that will all of a sudden be opened to homestead, as per Rothbard's theory of initial acquisition of vacant land. This land is completely unplatted. Thankfully all of it is divided by townships, so there will be a reference point for private defense agencies to recognize land claims.

Loggers will be able to secure pretty quick title to their existing lease lands from the government. Same with ranchers and mineral leasee's. I think privately funded interests will move fast to grab the national parks before anybody would have a chance to homestead and possibly try to develop said parks. The main problems will develop in fiat land that currently has no use.

All in all, there will be a lot of troubles in the beginning, but I think the market will figure them out.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

maxpot46 — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:19:03 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
I haven't seen even hypothetical models for how it would be handled. If we can't even conceptualize how it might work, then I would say it is a problem.

There's a famous essay that I think is appropriate here. It's called "I, pencil": http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/i,%20pencil%202006.pdf

It's not a problem if you or I or the folks here are unable to conceptualize how private land management might work. Market entreprenuers can, that's all that matters.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

MacFall — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:02:25 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
Magnus:
yet you find it hard to imagine that the very same people who invent computers, printingpresses, filecabinets, banks, insurances would be unable to organize for them self?

No. I am trying to understand the mechanism. How do you verify that someone owns a certain piece of land?

How do you verify that x owns the watch he claims y stole from him? You collect and evaluate the evidence, and make as best a decision as you can. If you can't figure it out, you refer it to someone who can.

There is always someone who can.

I would predict that among other things beyond my ken as a mere economics student and warehouse rat, this would involve:

- Testing the contestants' knowledge of particular marks on the property that would prove their prior claim;

- Hearing the testimony of witnesses (neighbors, business partners, et al);

- Tracking the history of title and testing its validity, etc.

And also, the contestants may have conflicting claims of varying degrees of strength - x may have planted a garden and let it go fallow in later years, whereupon y built a house on that spot. Does the prior claim of x extend over a period of time sufficient to sustain it beyond the building of y's house? Or does y have the stronger claim because he used land for an obviously productive purpose, where x's claim was based on dubious and tenuous productive use?

That's a question for x and y to work out through their respective advocates. As more and more of those situations are resolved, the theory is refined.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Stranger — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:45:41 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
Stranger:
How exactly does an overlapping claim arise?

Mistake, fraud, etc. I don't think the why is essential, but let's say I want to buy land. How do I make sure that the person selling me the land actually owns it?

Call up your insurance and ask them if they'll cover you.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Deist — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:13:45 GMT

Well I imagine land certification would happen the same way any other private certification agencies works on the market. Lets say in order to lower it's cost and to prevent needless fights a protection agency will keep records on file but to cover its bases it also asks for an independent agency to certify the land ownership, an agency that has a vested interest in it's reputation since it wants the courts to trust it (because the courts want to be taken as legitimate too). Right now the state takes care of the land registration but it could potentially be taken up by private firms paid in fees on the market by the protection agencies. This is how most consumer protection agencies operate and the more successfull ones get more business by firms because they are viewed as reliable (and capable of being sued) by the consumer. This helps firms sell their products since they bring it before a third party and lower their liability, and it helps consumers by raising the standard of their purchase and protecting themselves from harm. The land certification agency will make more money by being trust worthy and less apt to be sued by being honest about their work.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Libertas est Veritas — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:41:29 GMT

Stranger:
How exactly does an overlapping claim arise?

Mistake, fraud, etc. I don't think the why is essential, but let's say I want to buy land. How do I make sure that the person selling me the land actually owns it?

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Stranger — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:30:48 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
The main problem that I see, be it competing courts or competing firms, is that how will overlapping claims be prevented or resolved?

How exactly does an overlapping claim arise?

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Libertas est Veritas — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:13:17 GMT

maxpot46:
If we could answer this question, central planning would also be possible.

It don't see how an analogy to central planning applies here. Beyond Jon mentioning private firms that deal with land management, I haven't seen even hypothetical models for how it would be handled. If we can't even conceptualize how it might work, then I would say it is a problem.

I can fathom it being a court issue (you register land purchases/ownership), but I have very limited knowledge of how anarcho-capitalism is supposed to work, so I don't know what role courts play. The main problem that I see, be it competing courts or competing firms, is that how will overlapping claims be prevented or resolved?

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

maxpot46 — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:40:46 GMT

If we could answer this question, central planning would also be possible. Neither can be done because no single mind possesses the genius and entreprenuerial skill that the market brings to bear upon the problem. All that can be said with certainty at this point is that the final scheme of things will be determined by the desires of consumers as best served by the most efficient competitors.

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Libertas est Veritas — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:06:57 GMT

Stranger:
You don't need video recrords and DNA to prove someone guilty in court. All you need are witnesses.

I'm not sure I understand. Land ownership is usually very precise. So if there is no central archive of who owns what, how do you determine one claim to be valid and one to be invalid? Especially in situations where the precise limits of the owned land are concerned?

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Libertas est Veritas — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:00:08 GMT

Magnus:
yet you find it hard to imagine that the very same people who invent computers, printingpresses, filecabinets, banks, insurances would be unable to organize for them self?

No. I am trying to understand the mechanism. How do you verify that someone owns a certain piece of land?

Re: Land ownership in anarcho-capitalism

Stranger — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:55:47 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
Stranger:
You're asking for too much.

That is not my intention. I am merely trying to understand how ownership is proved. For example, if you don't have some centralized system of records of land ownership, how do you prevent fraud and mistakes, like two lots of land overlapping?

You don't need video recrords and DNA to prove someone guilty in court. All you need are witnesses.