Political Theory

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Heather — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:18:46 GMT

Kakugo - the envy and hatred was shocking for me, too.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

JosephBright — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:50:49 GMT

Ansury:

Not to go off topic, but I also don't really like the right/left labels either. Those terms are too charged and already have a specific meaning for most people, at least in the US. Even "liberal" or "liberalism", which is still technically correct, is a severely damaged term. So I tend to say the real spectrum of thought is "liberty vs authoritarianism" to avoid setting off people's internal content filters. (Classical liberal works I suppose but the "liberal" can set off so-called conservative types, I worry.)

JosephBright:

I remember starting to have doubts about the ideology when I tried to formulate how a socialist/communist society would operate, what its institutions would resemble, etc. I very quickly realized how similar Marxian socialism and Fascism really were.

I thought this was a nice brief answer which addresses what I'd guess is the motive in asking this question: How do you plant the seed in other "leftist" minds to help bring them over from the dark side?

I've tried the tactic a little on some stupid debate forums and they did seem to have trouble, not to mention they had to defend their grand plans against market realities. But I didn't really press on with it too hard. Perhaps this is worth playing around with some more.

It only works with people who are naturally inquisitive. Most socialists won't ever try to figure out how a socialist system would operate. They simply take the propaganda at face value and assume everything will take care of itself "when we cross that bridge." If you even try to imply that Fascism and Socialism are similar, they ridicule you. "Don't you know that Fascism and Socialism are polar opposite ideologies? Everyone knows that!" If you dig a bit deeper though, and ask them to describe the functional differences between the two, they might start to panic. If you clarify these things for them, that panic will soon turn to dread, and you will have a person with a crisis of faith on their hands. I highly recommend this tactic, especially for communists, but it must be presented to the person carefully.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Ansury — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:53:18 GMT

Not to go off topic, but I also don't really like the right/left labels either. Those terms are too charged and already have a specific meaning for most people, at least in the US. Even "liberal" or "liberalism", which is still technically correct, is a severely damaged term. So I tend to say the real spectrum of thought is "liberty vs authoritarianism" to avoid setting off people's internal content filters. (Classical liberal works I suppose but the "liberal" can set off so-called conservative types, I worry.)

JosephBright:

I remember starting to have doubts about the ideology when I tried to formulate how a socialist/communist society would operate, what its institutions would resemble, etc. I very quickly realized how similar Marxian socialism and Fascism really were.

I thought this was a nice brief answer which addresses what I'd guess is the motive in asking this question: How do you plant the seed in other "leftist" minds to help bring them over from the dark side?

I've tried the tactic a little on some stupid debate forums and they did seem to have trouble, not to mention they had to defend their grand plans against market realities. But I didn't really press on with it too hard. Perhaps this is worth playing around with some more.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Libertyandlife — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:07:56 GMT

Mike:

as previously mentioned; libertarians are a mixed bag of what society calls left and right.

I think we consider ourselves more 'rightish" because we are anti- state and that is considered right - wing now adays in the US. Also laisse- faire is consider right-wing in US.

But anti-war is considered left - etc. etc. etc... I feel more comfortable labeling myself on the right if I have too label myself.

I started as many young people, a radical socialist revolutionary. Pat Buchanan was my first introduction into another point of view. Years later in the GOP and Limbaug,(uugg). Stumbled onto this web- site about 5 years ago and had my mind blown listening to "for a new liberty" about a dozen times. Since then I read and listened to everything on this site. Down the rabbit hole, never to return..

I don't feel comfortable with either right or left labels. I feel comfortable with the labels: individualist, liberal, classical liberal and libertarian. That's it. We aren't trying to conserve anything, and our basic values clash with both right and left wings, if anything we are anti authoritarian or pro liberty.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Mike — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:37:12 GMT

as previously mentioned; libertarians are a mixed bag of what society calls left and right.

I think we consider ourselves more 'rightish" because we are anti- state and that is considered right - wing now adays in the US. Also laisse- faire is consider right-wing in US.

But anti-war is considered left - etc. etc. etc... I feel more comfortable labeling myself on the right if I have too label myself.

I started as many young people, a radical socialist revolutionary. Pat Buchanan was my first introduction into another point of view. Years later in the GOP and Limbaug,(uugg). Stumbled onto this web- site about 5 years ago and had my mind blown listening to "for a new liberty" about a dozen times. Since then I read and listened to everything on this site. Down the rabbit hole, never to return..

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:27:42 GMT

I had a Leninist/Stalinist persusation. You can't entirely grasp the formal communist ideas without having a contempt for everyone else in the world. Reading some Lew Rockwell articles I came to see the petty cynicism of the attitude that everyone should have a manufactured life according to one ideal.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

John Jensen — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 06:14:58 GMT

Albert Jay Nock's Our Enemy, The State. HIt me like a punch in the face. Or a pie.

Mmmmmm..pie.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Seph — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:17:34 GMT

Alex Jones.

First, he helped me realize that we can't trust the current government by bringing me to the realization that 9/11 was an inside job.

Secondly, he helped me realize that it wasnt just 9/11. Almost all events and laws are designed with the elites in mind.

Third, although not an an-cap, he helped me realize that it was government itself and not just the current one which was responsible.

He has his flaws, but I (and many others) owe a tremendous intellectual debt to him.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

JosephBright — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:16:07 GMT

My transition to libertarianism was a rather interesting one, and it all happened rather quickly. For a great while, I was, like many at a young age, a confused Marxist. I remember starting to have doubts about the ideology when I tried to formulate how a socialist/communist society would operate, what its institutions would resemble, etc. I very quickly realized how similar Marxian socialism and Fascism really were. This bothered me a great deal, since I could not imagine why these two supposedly opposed political system could be so structurally similar. I clearly remember thinking of how easy it would be to "flip a switch" and simply by changing a few titles and organizations around, convert a Fascist society to a Communist one, and vice versa. But I was a busy college student and didn't really draw any lessons from these doubts, but the seeds were planted into my mind.

At around the same time, I was a radical vegan who completely believed in the notion of animal liberation. I thought that humans should leave animals alone in the wild and not interfere with their lives. I remember one day thinking about this ideology, when an inner contradiction revealed itself to me: why did I feel that it was just to not interfere with the lives of animals, but had no qualms about dictating how human animals should be made to live? This bothered me quite a bit, but I had no idea how to resolve it. But this experience did prime me for what came soon after.

I had learned about the Federal Reserve during this time, and was completely stricken at how unjust and immoral the whole thing seemed. I learned of this politician named Ron Paul who was criticizing the Fed through an interview of him I had watched, and I started listening to what he was saying. This "evil capitalist" was making a ton of sense to me. A short while later, I was completely surprised to find out that he was going to be running for president. Even though his beliefs were opposite to mine, I felt that he was sincere, consistent, and honest in his convictions. I really wanted a person like this to be president, and I hoped that he could expose the Federal Reserve if he gained support. And so I supported him, even though I was a progressive at that time.

As I became involved in the Ron Paul campaign, I was really impressed by the cogency and consistency of his personal philosophy, and I was drawn in. I wondered what was behind it. Then one day I heard him speak about Austrian Economics, Mises, and Human Action. I realized that his philosophy stemmed from a school of economics, the Austrian school, and became fascinated with what they had to say. I read about Mises and Rothbard, their ideas, and it all immediately clicked. I remember reading Mises' Socialism with charged delight; it obliterated any remaining doubts I had, and showed me how silly socialist ideas really were. It was exhilarating! The first time I read Economics in One Lesson was one of those moments in life that you wish you could save in a bottle, so that you may relish a few magical drops from time to time.

The feeling you get when learning of Austrian Economics for the first time can't be described as anything but magical. The clarity of insight, the fog clearing from my mind, was illuminating beyond any other experience. I wasn't just putting on glasses for the first time and seeing the world anew. I was Galileo peering through a telescope at the cosmos; I was Darwin on his expedition when the first notions of Natural Selection crept into his mind; I was Newton under the apple tree. It was the first time in my life when everything that was so jumbled and incomprehensible about the world finally made sense. And it was beautiful.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Kakugo — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:02:47 GMT

Libertyandlife:

What originally lead you against your previous leftist thought? I would say the first thing that made me start thinking against socialist thought was the limitations that many "egalitarian" or collectivist systems created to diversity. In general, it seemed that they rejected the diversity that naturally came about from human culture, which is expressed very well in a free market.

Discovering how leftists are full of envy and hatred.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

fancyshirtman — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 10:31:17 GMT

Learning about corporatism + this quote:

"the libertarian sees no inconsistency in being "leftist" on some issues and "rightist" on others. On the contrary, he sees his own position as virtually the only consistent one, consistent on behalf of the liberty of every individual. For how can the leftist be opposed to the violence of war and conscription while at the same time supporting the violence of taxation and government control? And how can the rightist trumpet his devotion to private property and free enterprise while at the same time favoring war, conscription, and the outlawing of noninvasive activities and practices that he deems immoral? And how can the rightist favor a free market while seeing nothing amiss in the vast subsidies, distortions, and unproductive inefficiencies involved in the military-industrial complex?"

Good old Murray

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Esuric — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 10:04:37 GMT

I was a leftist until 2007 (I come from a family of socialists). Ignorance and naivety were the culprits.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

Andrew Cain — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:55:47 GMT

Libertyandlife:
A leftist on Mises? I'd love to see you post more often.

Well you would have to define what you entail by leftism. Traditionally speaking, all libertarians are leftists. It would actually be as such

Anarchism------------Socialism-------------(Reactionary/Aristocracy) Conservatism

Some people like to think of it as a rightist movement. I don't really have a qualm so long as you properly define what is on each side.

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

fakename — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:02:32 GMT

Libertyandlife:
A leftist on Mises? I'd love to see you post more often.

I remember the times brainpolice used to post more often. Heh, heh -good times, good times (though liberty student would've begged to differ).

Re: For the people on this forum who were previously leftists...

ThreeTrees — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:55:49 GMT

The usual is what gave me a leftist bent: bleeding heart, affluent suburban white kid guilt, a poor understanding of history, a poor understanding of economics and a poor understanding of government.

Then I started reading Human Action.