Political Theory

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

filc — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:12:58 GMT

scineram:

filc:

scineram:
Markets require legal order.

Is that not a market good?

No, not very much.

It's rather circular. You can't eliminate the market. No matter how corrupt things become. Protection is nothing more then a market good. We pay for it today in all methods. Many areas where the government is ill-equipped to protect us. Like network security, and not to mention the other many various forms of insurance for property protection.

If your thesis was followed to it's end then all forms of security should be sponsored by the coercive monopoly you support.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

DD5 — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:31:11 GMT

PorpoiseMuffins:

I think he means that since markets are based on legal order you have to have legal order before you can have a market.

Oh really? And how do you propose to finance your "legal order" before you have a market in the first place?

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

Jon Irenicus — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:06:39 GMT

Absence of aggression =/= services to ensure that absence. The provision of those can be carried out by the market, since any monopoly on them in the end will itself be a service provider exempting itself from market forces as best it can, i.e. rather than being outside the market it will be a part of it that tries to isolate itself from competitors. BTW with no living beings to carry out exchanges there can be none, so how on earth can the market provide food, as it is a precondition of its existence?

lolwut

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

PorpoiseMuffins — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:05:30 GMT

If you already had a market (defined as the absence of aggression) before you had legal order, you wouldn't need legal order, since the whole purpose of (good) legal order is to prevent aggression.

Right?

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

Jon Irenicus — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:43:53 GMT

Ah yes that magical argument, which says what is essentially an economic good must be provided by an economic institution that is a monopoly by law, because it's a precondition of exchange... yeah, makes so much sense. Guess what, food, transport, water &c. are also preconditions of exchange. Socialism ftw?

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

PorpoiseMuffins — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:23:25 GMT

I think he means that since markets are based on legal order you have to have legal order before you can have a market.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

Jon Irenicus — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:10:31 GMT

A million thanks for clearing that up so perspicuously. Unfortunately, that's a rather hollow assertion.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

scineram — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:08:39 GMT

filc:

scineram:
Markets require legal order.

Is that not a market good?

No, not very much.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

PorpoiseMuffins — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:01:42 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
PorpoiseMuffins:
Better to give it to a lesser evil and to constrain it through democracy and constitutional law, then to let it be usurped by Hitlers and the like.
Did you parse this sentance for logic and history?

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Eh, forget I said it. It was a really poor way of expressing what I'm thinking anyway.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

nirgrahamUK — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:19:40 GMT

PorpoiseMuffins:
Better to give it to a lesser evil and to constrain it through democracy and constitutional law, then to let it be usurped by Hitlers and the like.

Did you parse this sentance for logic and history?

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

PorpoiseMuffins — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:55:39 GMT

filc:

alimentarius:

We need the state for one reason; to prevent evil people from gaining power.

Keep evil people from gaining power by giving evil people power?

Unless the general public is well educated in the virtues of anarchism, somebody WILL gain power, won't they? Better to give it to a lesser evil and to constrain it through democracy and constitutional law, then to let it be usurped by Hitlers and the like.

Libertarians say "Initiating force is always wrong. End of discussion." Objectivists also value non-aggression, but only when it benefits the individual.

Libertarians believe that initiating force is always wrong because it benefits one individual at the expense of another. In other words, it is not good for the individual, unless you believe that sacrificing others to yourself is good for the individual--which Rand certainly did not.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

Justin Spahr-Summers — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:21:28 GMT

Ethical egoism is also a principle. Does that make it collectivist?

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

filc — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:49:30 GMT

scineram:
Markets require legal order.

Is that not a market good?

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

nirgrahamUK — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:43:28 GMT

also legal order requires markets.

they are co-emergent. state is a wrench in the works.

Re: Is libertarianism a collectivist ideology?

scineram — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:38:07 GMT

Markets require legal order.