Political Theory

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Mon, 05 May 2008 22:15:04 GMT

maxpot46:

It's in the dictionary.

I know the definition, but I don't know why one needs a king or queen. Talk about unsupported claims.

maxpot46:

Demographics is a hugely important consideration when crafting effective economic or political strategy.

You didn't even come close to answering the question.

How exactly does Agorism "ignore differing personality types"? How could such a thing even remotely apply?

maxpot46:

It is an unsupported assertion, to put it charitably. Put bluntly, it's nonsense. Liberty could grow in one fell swoop if a president signed an executive order reinstating the dollar's link to gold (as one of many examples).

Oh... Like the liberty you had in 1970, gotcha!

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

maxpot46 — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:16:50 GMT

Niccolò:
I don't know what you mean by "sovereign."

It's in the dictionary.

Niccolò:
How exactly does Agorism "ignore differing personality types"? How could such a thing even remotely apply?

Demographics is a hugely important consideration when crafting effective economic or political strategy.

Niccolò:

appeals to authority (SEK, who likes to make unsupported assertions such as All will fail if for no other reason than Liberty grows individual by individual"),

Unsupported, ok.

It is an unsupported assertion, to put it charitably. Put bluntly, it's nonsense. Liberty could grow in one fell swoop if a president signed an executive order reinstating the dollar's link to gold (as one of many examples).

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Mon, 05 May 2008 04:26:12 GMT

Anonymous Coward:

You almost had me converted over to your cause with the moral justification for killing politicians (or the lack thereof) and then you had to go and insult me because I'm a high school drop-out.

Oh well, gotta go walk the dog and then go work for The Man...

Actually, I put you in the same boat as college students - like me.

We're all equals.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Anonymous Coward — Mon, 05 May 2008 04:03:55 GMT

Niccolò:
Uh huh... Well, that's nice. It isn't the road I would choose - or at least it isn't a road that I would choose if it pertained to an exclusive situation where you either have one or the other - but congratulations on being such a "grown up," guy who sits on computer arguing with college students and high school drop-outs.

You almost had me converted over to your cause with the moral justification for killing politicians (or the lack thereof) and then you had to go and insult me because I'm a high school drop-out.

Oh well, gotta go walk the dog and then go work for The Man...

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

liberty student — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:50:27 GMT

Niccolò:
Uh huh... Well, that's nice. It isn't the road I would choose - or at least it isn't a road that I would choose if it pertained to an exclusive situation where you either have one or the other - but congratulations on being such a "grown up," guy who sits on computer arguing with college students and high school drop-outs.

LOL.

You forgot high school drop outs who live at home with their parents.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:40:01 GMT

liberty student:

People with responsibilities to others. Mouths to feed. Children to watch. Spouses to support (emotionally, if not financially).

You know, grown up stuff.

Uh huh... Well, that's nice. It isn't the road I would choose - or at least it isn't a road that I would choose if it pertained to an exclusive situation where you either have one or the other - but congratulations on being such a "grown up," guy who sits on computer arguing with college students and high school drop-outs.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:37:49 GMT

Ego:

You advocated murdering tax-cutting free-market politicians on the grounds that politicians rule over you

Not entirely. If I've said that, it was not entirely serious, my position isn't an advocation of killing politicians, it is one of accepting the act as moral, but not entirely expediant to advancing the cause of liberty.

(never mind the fact that free-market politician is trying to reduce oppression),

Except they don't. They only increase it, though indirectly.

and you oppose voting against tax-cutting ballot initiatives because voting is ruling over you (never mind that the voter is trying to reduce oppression). I drew the connection because I figured that you'd be consistent.

Oh, I do oppose voting, but not because it is "ruling over me." I oppose it because it is counter-productive - I have no solid position on the morality of it; I quite frankly just don't give a damn about that.

As for your "weak-minded" question:

When asked why you were so always so arrogant and rude, you replied that other people are convinced when someone acts that way as opposed to acting calmly and politely. I certainly assume that you don't feel you would fall for an argument because its proponent is being arrogant and rude; you probably feel that you weigh ideas based on their merit and truth. Why not give everyone else the same credit that you give yourself instead of assuming that you're smarter?

That's really simplistic. Do you know what attribution theory is?

The purpose of science/logic/philosophy/etc. is to remove oneself from the aspect of judgment.

The simple fact is that as a general rule people tend to follow direct approaches or characters that display intuitive confidence. Whether I do this or not - I, as most people, do fall into the trap - is not the issue

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

liberty student — Mon, 05 May 2008 01:31:35 GMT

Niccolò:
Who is "we"?

People with responsibilities to others. Mouths to feed. Children to watch. Spouses to support (emotionally, if not financially).

You know, grown up stuff.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Ego — Mon, 05 May 2008 00:55:11 GMT

You advocated murdering tax-cutting free-market politicians on the grounds that politicians rule over you (never mind the fact that free-market politician is trying to reduce oppression), and you oppose voting against tax-cutting ballot initiatives because voting is ruling over you (never mind that the voter is trying to reduce oppression). I drew the connection because I figured that you'd be consistent.

As for your "weak-minded" question:

When asked why you were so always so arrogant and rude, you replied that other people are convinced when someone acts that way as opposed to acting calmly and politely. I certainly assume that you don't feel you would fall for an argument because its proponent is being arrogant and rude; you probably feel that you weigh ideas based on their merit and truth. Why not give everyone else the same credit that you give yourself instead of assuming that you're smarter?

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Mon, 05 May 2008 00:39:54 GMT

liberty student:

Our priorities and necessities change when we are responsible for, and to, others.

Who is "we"?

I did not say that having a mere fetish for liberty, as opposed to a devotion to it, could not be worked with. No, I just said that Maxpot is only a fetishest, which he is.

Actually, perhaps I can even retract that. Maxpot has a fetish for the word liberty, but not the actual thing - er... well, at least not for people who don't have a penis...

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Mon, 05 May 2008 00:35:18 GMT

Ego:

Liberty student, Nic's a leftist-libertarian. He wants to kill voters who vote against tax-raising ballot-initiatives.

He has also admitted his belief that other individuals are weak-minded; in his mind, other individuals will be believe whomever states ideas in the most insulting, arrogant, forceful manner.

No, I'm actually just a libertarian - I'm sorry you can't deal with the fact that libertarians (true libertarians) are left, but it is the truth nonetheless.

I don't want to kill voters, nor have I ever even suggested it. I have, however, suggested shunning individuals that have been given all the arguments opposing their tactics, but proceed to vote anyways.

I don't know where I "admitted a belief that other individuals are weak-minded." Where does this come from? A basic understanding of persuasion techniques?

Oh, ok.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Ego — Sun, 04 May 2008 16:59:41 GMT

Liberty student, Nic's a leftist-libertarian. He wants to kill voters who vote against tax-raising ballot-initiatives.

He has also admitted his belief that other individuals are weak-minded; in his mind, other individuals will be believe whomever states ideas in the most insulting, arrogant, forceful manner.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

liberty student — Sun, 04 May 2008 16:28:39 GMT

Niccolò:
Right, as you've already admitted, your love for liberty is just a quaint hobby - a fetish. You have a liberty fetish; it doesn't make you a libertarian, just someone turned on by the bosom of liberty.

This is a flippant response to a serious issue that any anarchist movement faces.

It's all well and good when we exist alone, angry, separate and in a vacuum of our own creation.

Our priorities and necessities change when we are responsible for, and to, others.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

Niccolò — Sun, 04 May 2008 09:01:52 GMT

maxpot46:

I remain open-minded on this issue, but I have yet to hear strong arguments that agorism is a realistic approach to change. Thus far from agorist defenders I'm only getting a lot of strategy that ignores the differing personality types found in nature (most people who aren't angry young men like and prefer a sovereign),

I don't know what you mean by "sovereign."

How exactly does Agorism "ignore differing personality types"? How could such a thing even remotely apply?

dubious assertions (e.g. avoiding crackdowns with PDAs, uh huh),

First, a defense agency is not the means by which Agorism proposes to "avoid crackdowns." The fact that you even think that indicates how little you know.

Agorists do not believe PDA's will even occur until the 3rd to 4th phase of the revolution. Agorists do, however, believe that "avoiding crackdowns" is something worth doing, and as Agorists have a particularly high incentive for doing it, they should do it well given the freeness of competing strategies to avoid the state - if economic law means anything to a conservative like you.

appeals to authority (SEK, who likes to make unsupported assertions such as All will fail if for no other reason than Liberty grows individual by individual"),

Unsupported, ok.

and flawed, easily-defended attacks on reformism (e.g. not emperically supported, too hard to win elections).

Do you even know what empricism is? It's just the observation of given trends, such as the trend of reformists barking at people to vote while consistently failing afterwards.

I disagree with Mises here.

Then the article is not addressed for you. My intention is not to rehash the Socialist calculation debate. Read Planned Chaos if you want.

Well, I think the Mises makes that error in thinking of politics. I think perfect socialism and perfect anarchism are like ERE's -- useful in showing aspects of the real world but unable to manifest in the real world due to human nature. People will never embrace perfect socialism because most people love private property and freedom too much (not to mention the calculation problem). However, IMO people will never embrace perfect anarchy either, because some people need a sovereign and fear life without one.

Again, what's a sovereign?

In any case, then you're a statist and an inherent enemy.

Only angry young men are willing to take on the state directly. The rest of us have families to consider.

Right, as you've already admitted, your love for liberty is just a quaint hobby - a fetish. You have a liberty fetish; it doesn't make you a libertarian, just someone turned on by the bosom of liberty.

Re: Misesian Case Against Reform

maxpot46 — Sat, 03 May 2008 09:32:14 GMT

MacFall:
But I would point out that it doesn't matter whether it "works" as a revolutionary strategy. You should circumvent the state every chance you get because it is to your benefit to do so.

I'm totally with you there, and I certainly do so as much as possible.