Political Theory

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Stranger — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:05:53 GMT

Spideynw:

Bert:
Short answer: guns.

The people in the United States have plenty of guns. It has not stopped the government from getting massive.

As Hoppe explains, the state grows in power by appealing to egalitarianism, that is to say by destroying all sources of organized authority other than itself, thus leaving nothing but isolated individuals in relation to the state. (It began in the 16th century by destroying the church, and it ended in the 20th century by destroying the family.) Isolated individuals, no matter how many guns they carry on their person, can no more oppose the state than a mosquito can.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Cabal — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 01:11:59 GMT

Er... just to be clear, this idea of utopia wasn't the intention of this post. I just wanted to explore reasonable arguments from the position of ancap.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Hairnet — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:40:54 GMT

I agree. Anarcho-Capitalism is supposed to establish a better social order, not some sort of utopia. There will still be bad things like crime, disease, cults, and even tyranny in some places. We can't expect an AnCap world order. I don't even care if there is such a thing.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

AndrewR — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:29:26 GMT

I believe the simplest answer to that question is, well, nothing would stop it.

If we're talking about a Randian minarchist society, it would already be pretty much a dictatorship anyway and spend its time 'rationally coercing' industry into building warehouses full of military hardware… (The Randian equivalent of soviet tractor production or Chinese steel making)

Alternatively, if we're talking about an-cap society(ies) then I imagine there would be 'dictators' all over the place. However, those dictators would have a sphere of influence no larger than their respective communities and most likely be of the benign persuasion (a chieftain of the Hoppeian natural elite). An an-cap society would have whatever arrangement suited the particular community, good or bad, and perish or thrive accordingly.

That's my take, anyway.

To add: Libertarianism offers people the chance to be free of statist economic and social restraints. However, if those people choose to obey, celebrate or fight for a singular individual, party or ideology then that's a choice they'll have to bear. Think of it this way, if, in a an-cap society a community choose to blindly follow some leader or whatever then they have voluntarily given that person their psychological consent to be ruled. If, on the other hand, they actively resist or ridicule this leader-man, then they have made another voluntary choice.

To add again: I think it's dangerous to assume libertarianism is some sort of utopian ideal which will magically usher in a thousand years of peace, happiness and prosperity and where everyone thinks alike and never violates the sacred NAP… Libertarianism simply gives one the true freedom to screw-up or prosper on their own terms and thus permits them to live in a society of their choice.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Hairnet — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:19:16 GMT

assimilateur:

Hairnet:
A dictator can really only rise to power if people let him. I don't see people creating an anarcho-capitalist society and then promoting some sort of dictatorship.

You seem to assume that virtually everyone would support a free society, but wouldn't it be conceivable for groups of people disgruntled with that state of affairs to try and stage a loyalist, if you will, uprising? I don't think this would be a threat to a stateless society at large, but I can imagine reactionary forces taking over a city here and there, perhaps subjugating or displacing part of the local population.

That can absolutely happen (certain sections of a populace maintaining the state), but would we consider those two groups to be a uniform society? Still, assuming that all AnCap works, I can see major capital flight from those areas, they would be impoverished pretty soon after establishing a government. They would either need to maintain their poverty or wage perpetual war, at which I can see them loosing.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Episteme — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 02:14:37 GMT

Cabal:

1. What motivation is there for a power-hungry dictator to 'rise to power', as there would be no state to conquer--On this point, I'm unaware of any dictatorial leaders who rose to power without state facilitation, though admittedly I could be uninformed on this point. Further, if they've risen to a point of 'power' without any state to support their rise, clearly they are already wealthy if they're in a libertarian society, so it seems that further wealth would not be a very compelling argument here. Further still, what motivation would an entire necessary army of people have to violently support this dictators rise to power? It seems to me that without aa established state to control and conscript an army, in a society which is relatively prosperous without a state, there would be little incentive (an no coercion) for people to join such an army--as well, as far as I know, uprisings of the masses have always been in opposition of the state or a dictator, not in support of them.

Unless you are referring to a very specific form of dictatorship, or to a very narrow definition of what is a dictatorial government, I do not understand why you subdue the possibility of the rise of a dictatorial power to the prior presence of an effectively constituted State that would be possible to "conquer ". I am aware of the qualitative differences that can be drawn between, say, a dictatorship, a tyranny and a totalitarian regime. But still, if we agree upon a broad definition of what would be a dictatorial power, it seems, at least to me, that this type of political power has existed well before the onset of the model of social organization that is the State as we know it today. In other words, the tyrants existed well before the State and it seems to me that there is no indication that their existence is exclusive to the existence of the latter. No matter the reasons that might drive their will.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

assimilateur — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 04:52:44 GMT

Hairnet:
A dictator can really only rise to power if people let him. I don't see people creating an anarcho-capitalist society and then promoting some sort of dictatorship.

You seem to assume that virtually everyone would support a free society, but wouldn't it be conceivable for groups of people disgruntled with that state of affairs to try and stage a loyalist, if you will, uprising? I don't think this would be a threat to a stateless society at large, but I can imagine reactionary forces taking over a city here and there, perhaps subjugating or displacing part of the local population.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Spideynw — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 04:13:32 GMT

Bert:
Short answer: guns.

The people in the United States have plenty of guns. It has not stopped the government from getting massive.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Stranger — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 02:05:43 GMT

Bert:

Short answer: guns.

Saddam Hussein is not on that list, because he didn't care how many guns Iraqis had.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Bert — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:35:59 GMT

Short answer: guns.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Spideynw — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:27:45 GMT

What is to stop people from taking away a woman's right to vote in the United States? The fact that people now understand that women are equal to men (intellectually speaking). What is to stop people from enslaving others? The fact that people now recognize that humans cannot be owned. What will stop people from taxing others, once taxes are abolished? The fact that people will recognize taxation as mass extortion.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Caley McKibbin — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:17:19 GMT

One person can't control a million people by threateningly shaking his fist. He has to convince them to passively take it up the wazaoo. Like the classic case of the beaten wife that makes excuses for her husband and doesn't leave him.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Hairnet — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:45:23 GMT

A dictator can really only rise to power if people let him. I don't see people creating an anarcho-capitalist society and then promoting some sort of dictatorship. Besides, a lot dictatorships come out of the context of failed democracies. So the argument applies right back any social democrat/'"conservative".

Ultimately people choose their leaders. Systems do matter, and there are differences between how people choose their leaders and the sort of rules people accept. In the end however, a dictator is rarely ruling a country by pure force alone. That seems difficult to do with a small group of people, much less a nation that is expected to remain productive for the sake of the dictator's desires. So anyone asking such a thing would have to explain why a segment of a libertarian society would desire a dictator after establishing a libertarian system.

Re: What would prevent dictatorial rise to power in a libertarian society?

Stranger — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:54:15 GMT

Only God can prevent men from doing things, and I'm not sure he wants to.