Political Theory

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Wibee — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:40:41 GMT

Amazing post! Depressing conclusion though...

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Seph — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:23:34 GMT

CrazyCoot:

What would happen if the Chinese government decided to do away with all the economic regulations, except having to be a member of the Communist Party?

There would cease to be a Communist Party.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

CrazyCoot — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:24:12 GMT

What would happen if the Chinese government decided to do away with all the economic regulations, except having to be a member of the Communist Party?

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Conza88 — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:50:03 GMT

Folks, is it necessary to re-quote the entire OP?

Ffs..

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

nameless — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:05:00 GMT

I will likely be visiting family in China this summer in Fuzhou, though I may travel within the country too. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about what I will be doing in China, though I plan on writing about my experiences. What do people here think would be interesting subject matters? I will likely compile a list of questions to ask some of my relatives, who have had a great deal of experience in industry, government, business, etc.

Unfortunately, I'll need to really brush up on my Chinese, since I never use it anymore. The whole being-largely-illiterate-in-Chinese thing is also not too great. I'm very excited about this trip, though. My first trip to China as an adult, and possibly the last time I will be able to see some family members.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Seph — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:22:43 GMT

Nielsio:
Teachers can effect the content of the tests?

No, that's the whole point.....only the government can...

Nielsio:
If the teacher's favorite topic isn't on the test, the students will do badly on the test? Why? Won't they just study the actual curriculum regardless?

The curriculum which is based on the standardized test, provided by the central government. Which was exactly the point I was trying to make!!!

Nielsio:
Incoherent again. A student doesn't control what's in the tests.

I guess its a good thing I never said they did? Only that they can control what they study, and if they study is out of line with what the government wants them to learn, they'll get bad marks.

Nielsio:
Can someone confirm that the paragraph was very poorly written, or am I crazy?

I dont see anyone else having troubles, but thanks anyways

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

AnonLLF — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:21:35 GMT

Seph:

Observation #1: Standardized Testing

If a decentralized public system would be a serious blow to the state, then fully privatized education would surely be its death knell. The information taught to students would largely be focused on preparing them for jobs in the free market.

I agree.State schools spend so much time indoctrinating that they almost forget to teach any skills at all.

(b)

Another point of interest is why degrees become more and more important, as government grows in a country.

Interesting.Is it possible degrees would be less needed in a stateless society?

Observation #3: The Nature of Propaganda

Why is the national bank of China called "The People's Bank of China" and the currency "The People's Currency". Why is the army not called the Chinese Army, but instead "The People's Liberation Army"?

Here in britain right now we have adverts and posters called the state post office(the royal mail) "The People's Post Office".I think most ordinary people hate the state postal system yet are forced to use it.

The Lesson:

This is more than just the cliched "ahhhh that's just politicians talking, we know they're a bunch of liars" type of dialog, this is something which can actually be established as a universal truth; a political law, if you will.

The stronger government insists something is true; the stronger the opposite is true.

This is interesting.Sounds quite a reliable law.

This is why Obama has done more to further Bush's agenda than Bush himself, because he so vehemently promised change.

It's that old tactic.Hide the truth by claim your doing exactly the opposite of what your really doing.It's like Orwellian doublespeak.Afterall they do tell us " war is peace" ,"Tax slavery makes you free" etc.

This is why Bush proclaimed so loudly that he was 'saving the free market'; because he was destroying it.

Just like the media set up the free market straw man only to knock it down.

I could go on, and on. So why is this the case? Why don't we see this in the free market? Why doesn't Apple claim it has the cheapest computers? Why don't we see McDonald's ads claiming it has the healthiest food on the planet?

(I know this is stating the obvious but it's just an important point) the reason is because the incentives are all different.Structurally the state inclines those involved with it to lie to protect it's very existence.

The Lesson:

Look at the life of a single one of these regulatory forms. First, it is passed to people who collect them. Then, there need to be people who sort them, and people who analyze them. There need to be people who enforce the regulations, people who decide how to enforce them and people who decide what needs enforcing. All these people need to be first trained and then organized. This process needs to be repeated for every city, municipality, province and state in the country. There need to be multiple tiers of these people; the grunt workers, their bosses, their bosses bosses, etc all the way back to the State Department of X and then The Federal Department of X. In other words, even one regulation can easily involve thousands of people. And so we come to the grand realization.

Great Post! . Do you think it's fair to say China is no longer Socialist but not corporatist? That does seem to be the pattern former socialist states follow.

Thousands of bureaucrats have jobs solely based on these forms, procedures and regulations. Thousands of people who have never been trained to get a job in the free market. Thousands of people who have never had to do any real work in their lives. Thousands of people, who have lived off of productive people their whole lives.

This sounds like something Mises would have wrote in his book Bureaucracy.Maybe he did.It's on my "to read" list.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

B-man — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:06:54 GMT

As I understand it, he is saying that the desires of the Teacher & the Student in terms of curriculum are akin to self-immolation.

iow: If the Teacher makes the decision to teach *anything* outside of what is on the standardized tests, the student will perform poorly on the tests, which results in a termination of school advancement. Same holds true if the student spends any amount of time pursuing studies outside of what's on the tests, its so competitive that any time spent studying non-standardized material will also result in failure.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Nielsio — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:41:34 GMT

wilderness:

Basically, it's saying that teachers need to teach students X, because X is on the standardized test.

I understand that, but still the paragraph doesn't make any sense to me.

As a teacher, what if you want to teach your students about X? Better make sure X will be on the standardized test;
Teachers can effect the content of the tests? That doesn't make sense in this whole central planning story.

if it's not, your students will do poorly on the test,
If the teacher's favorite topic isn't on the test, the students will do badly on the test? Why? Won't they just study the actual curriculum regardless? Again: incoherent.

which means they'll get into lousy schools. As a student, want to study X? Better make sure it'll be on the standardized test;
Incoherent again. A student doesn't control what's in the tests.

if it's not, you'll do worse on the test,
If what you like doesn't happen to be on the test, then you won't do well? Again: a totally crude way to explain this.

Can someone confirm that the paragraph was very poorly written, or am I crazy?

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

wilderness — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:16:00 GMT

Nielsio:

Seph:

As a teacher, what if you want to teach your students about X? Better make sure X will be on the standardized test; if it's not, your students will do poorly on the test, which means they'll get into lousy schools. As a student, want to study X? Better make sure it'll be on the standardized test; if it's not, you'll do worse on the test, which means you'll get into a lousy school.

Can someone explain these sentences for me? It doesn't seem coherent to me.

Basically, it's saying that teachers need to teach students X, because X is on the standardized test.

Same goes for the U.S. and their standardized tests, which are increasing. The state of Pennsylvania is having more standardized tests added, not all schools in the state have the same amount, but currently a local school here has two tests (one being about six days long). Statewide 8 more tests are being added next year. Of those 8, students have to take and pass 6 of them before they graduate. Those tests will be available periodically throughout their high school years. The students have to make sure they go and take the 6 tests before their high school years end. So that will bring the total standardized tests the students have to take up from 2 to 8.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

wilderness — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:09:55 GMT

such a good post.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Caley McKibbin — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:26:07 GMT

Chris:
2) How easy is it to start up a business?

They have a fairly high rating in that at http://www.freetheworld.com/, but only as of 2006.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Seph — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:21:51 GMT

Chris:

Seph:

Thank you very much for the informative post from an inside perspective of China. I have a couple questions about China.

1) What are the taxes like?

2) How easy is it to start up a business?

3) Can one get around speaking English?

Thanks.

Difficult questions to answer as things can greatly differ depending on where you live in China. Some areas are backwards, poor areas where almost no one speaks English and literally the only Western things you will see are McDonalds and KFC.

Other areas, like Hong Kong and Shanghai are some of the most modern cities on earth, where almost all young people speak English.

And then there are about a million areas in between. So any specifics you have would help. Also, let me make the caveat that 'knowing China' is basically impossible. I lived in Canada for the first 18 years of my life, yet I cant tell you the first thing about some aspects of the country. China is the same. Having said all that....

1. Taxes (from what I can tell, I've talked to people who have owned a business, but never owned one myself) are generally better than what you'd find in America. If you could find an area in China where your direct taxation is equal to, or more, than what you'd expect to pay in Western countries, I'd be surprised indeed. The real benefit though, is the cheap labour and total lack of any labour regulation.

2. Similar to the above. As long as you're not trying to do anything too big, you shouldn't have much trouble. Be careful though, if you're planning to own a business and make sure you have all your papers in order before you do anything. I had a friend who wanted to open a bar, but had to register it as a cafe because of some snafoo with the paperwork. This meant he had to close at 11pm every night.

3. Totally depends where you live. I'm living in a city now where maybe 1 out of 200 people (if that) can speak some basic English. In Hong Kong or Shanghai it's more like 1 in 2.

But no matter where you go, or what you intend to do, my advice would be the same. Unless you're made of money, find a job, study, or do something else in China for the first 6 months-1 year where your accommodations and visa are totally taken care of by people who have experience with that sort of thing. This will give you a year to settle in, meet people, get to know the area and the culture without having the hassle of trying to set up living conditions and visa's without speaking the language.

Despite all the negatives I've mentioned, if you're thinking of starting a business, China is a good choice. Having lived here and in Canada, I can unequivocally state that I'd rather start a business here.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Nielsio — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:50:05 GMT

Seph:

As a teacher, what if you want to teach your students about X? Better make sure X will be on the standardized test; if it's not, your students will do poorly on the test, which means they'll get into lousy schools. As a student, want to study X? Better make sure it'll be on the standardized test; if it's not, you'll do worse on the test, which means you'll get into a lousy school.

Can someone explain these sentences for me? It doesn't seem coherent to me.

Re: Observations and Lessons from living in China

Chris — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:50:11 GMT

Seph:

Thank you very much for the informative post from an inside perspective of China. I have a couple questions about China.

1) What are the taxes like?

2) How easy is it to start up a business?

3) Can one get around speaking English?

Thanks.