Political Theory

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

DD5 — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:38:32 GMT

Conza88:

Snowflake:
When you homestead land, you don't own it. You only own the rights to continue homesteading it uninterrupted. So, if you were farming land, and I need to walk across it, I don't need your permission to so long as me doing so doesn't hurt your crops.

Bogus.

I can walk across your lawn, as long as I don't hurt the grass.

I can walk into your living room, as long as I don't scrape the floor boards.

I second that bogus.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Wibee — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:34:24 GMT

Conza88:

You forget to lock a window... (access can be obtained without property destruction) you come home and find a stranger in your house, he's got a balaclava on. He is carrying your television set.

Some (lol) would say he's not trespassing... ! He hasn't taken any of your property yet... he should just be on his merry way. He's violated no-ones rights.

All you can do is... watch him go to the next house, yeah - because he's done nothing wrong.

Absurd.

Furthermore, why isn't walking on grass considered property destruction? I spent good money maintaining my lawn. You damaged my blade of grass. You stepped on my path, it is now dirty. I want compensation. </directed at snowflakes position>

I would wager if you make use of your property, it grants you the rights to bar anyone from entry. Basically, like a house. You make use of it because you live in it. You sit on couch, you walk into the kitchen. You walk into the backyard. It's when you get squatters who buy up property and not use it. Government is always a good example. claiming arbitrarily, the ownership of all land west of my position. I am sure that if these people who walk around your land litter or damage anything, one can extract compensation. It's something I must read up more about. So much reading... so little time :(

Now, I am going to say something that will warrant some Harry Potter language thrown at me.... But, these idea are new to me. A lot of it feels absurd to me as well. These feelings of absurdness stems from centuries of state rule. So I have no qualms about exploring topics that are new to me.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Marko — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:53:47 GMT

He chooses to think of planting crops as a form of easement. Is this really that outrageous? What is the difference between planting crops on a piece of land and using it as a grazing area for your livestock (which gives you an ownership of an easement, but not of the land)? There is a practical difference in that planting crops interferes with just about every other use for the land, but philosophically?

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

DBratton — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:16:35 GMT

Snowflake:
When you homestead land, you don't own it. You only own the rights to continue homesteading it uninterrupted

I have to agree with the others that this doesn't make sense. I think in trying to define homesteading you are focusing too much on the meaning of the word "own" when you should be focusing on the meaning of the word "it". Most of the confusion and disagreement over homesteading comes from trying to determine just what someone owns after homesteading a piece of property. For example past legal regimes have allowed land owners to claim oil and mineral rights, though current libertarian thinking is that homesteading to setup a farm only confers rights to the surface. And it used to be held that a land owner owned the sky above his property, but the government arbitrarily abolished that right when the airplane was invented.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Conza88 — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:33:30 GMT

Wibee:
I am referring to a property intruder. One would have recourse if an intruder breaks a window to enter a house. Or tramples flowers in a garden.

Yes. And what about if you build a brick wall fence 5m's high in an attempt to "secure" it. Then someone simply gets a ladder and climbs over it, then enters your property - walking around the lawn, according to some (lol) they wouldn't be trespassing or violating anyones rights.

You forget to lock a window... (access can be obtained without property destruction) you come home and find a stranger in your house, he's got a balaclava on. He is carrying your television set.

Some (lol) would say he's not trespassing... ! He hasn't taken any of your property yet... he should just be on his merry way. He's violated no-ones rights.

All you can do is... watch him go to the next house, yeah - because he's done nothing wrong.

Absurd.

Furthermore, why isn't walking on grass considered property destruction? I spent good money maintaining my lawn. You damaged my blade of grass. You stepped on my path, it is now dirty. I want compensation. </directed at snowflakes position>

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Paul — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 05:25:04 GMT

Snowflake:

When you homestead land, you don't own it. You only own the rights to continue homesteading it uninterrupted.

What do you mean by "continue homesteading"? The verb "to homestead" means essentially "to bring into ownership", an act that, once completed, can't be "continued", by nature; and, of course, necessarily means you do own it!

(There's no connection to farming. That confusion probably stems from the 1862 US Homestead Act, which required farming the homesteaded land)

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Wibee — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 04:55:45 GMT

Conza88:

Wibee:

Wibee:
but if you secure your house in a way that getting inside would cause destruction of property

Elaboration / example please.

Wibee:
Breaking a window to enter a house is a straight-forward example.

It's your property, you can do what you want with it. If that means blowing up your own home, by all means - if it doesn't damage any other persons property, and you don't try claim the insurance, there is nothing wrong with doing so. You have that right.

I'm still completely confused about this "point". What is it and how does it relate to what I said earlier? Help me out here with something more than one sentence.

Sorry, I thought I was clear. I am referring to a property intruder. One would have recourse if an intruder breaks a window to enter a house. Or tramples flowers in a garden.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Conza88 — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 03:31:54 GMT

Wibee:

Wibee:
but if you secure your house in a way that getting inside would cause destruction of property

Elaboration / example please.

Wibee:
Breaking a window to enter a house is a straight-forward example.

It's your property, you can do what you want with it. If that means blowing up your own home, by all means - if it doesn't damage any other persons property, and you don't try claim the insurance, there is nothing wrong with doing so. You have that right.

I'm still completely confused about this "point". What is it and how does it relate to what I said earlier? Help me out here with something more than one sentence.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Wibee — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 03:23:59 GMT

Conza88:

Wibee:
I see your concern. I feel odd about it as well.

Reductio absurdum-esque.

Wibee:
but if you secure your house in a way that getting inside would cause destruction of property

Elaboration / example please.

Your Harry Potter spell has no effect on me... :)

Breaking a window to enter a house is a straight-forward example.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Conza88 — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 02:45:17 GMT

Wibee:
I see your concern. I feel odd about it as well.

Reductio absurdum-esque.

Wibee:
but if you secure your house in a way that getting inside would cause destruction of property

Elaboration / example please.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

I. Ryan — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:55:54 GMT

Wibee:

I see your concern. I feel odd about it as well. but if you secure your house in a way that getting inside would cause destruction of property, then there are problems that can be addressed.

Good point; interesting.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Wibee — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:06:42 GMT

Conza88:

Snowflake:
When you homestead land, you don't own it. You only own the rights to continue homesteading it uninterrupted. So, if you were farming land, and I need to walk across it, I don't need your permission to so long as me doing so doesn't hurt your crops.

Bogus.

I can walk across your lawn, as long as I don't hurt the grass.

I can walk into your living room, as long as I don't scrape the floor boards.

I see your concern. I feel odd about it as well. but if you secure your house in a way that getting inside would cause destruction of property, then there are problems that can be addressed.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Conza88 — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:33:17 GMT

Snowflake:
When you homestead land, you don't own it. You only own the rights to continue homesteading it uninterrupted. So, if you were farming land, and I need to walk across it, I don't need your permission to so long as me doing so doesn't hurt your crops.

Bogus.

I can walk across your lawn, as long as I don't hurt the grass.

I can walk into your living room, as long as I don't scrape the floor boards.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Sieben — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:56:53 GMT

When you homestead land, you don't own it. You only own the rights to continue homesteading it uninterrupted. So, if you were farming land, and I need to walk across it, I don't need your permission to so long as me doing so doesn't hurt your crops.

With regard to mystery crates from heaven, whoever gets to them and uses them first has the legitimate claim to ownership.

Re: Jericho tv series and homesteading

Marko — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:16:46 GMT

Kenneth:

Explanation please. How about if it is expressly stated to be for the public?

I don't think it matters. Pushing a crate off a plane hoping someone homesteads it equals abandoning the crate so it voids you the right to determine its future.