Political Theory

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

hayekianxyz — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:59:49 GMT

I think Molyneux's rationalism is the source of statism, but there we go...

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Nitroadict — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:44:24 GMT

His entire argument loses to biology, until the biology that enables supposed inherent statism changes (gene therapy has a long way to go).

In many families it's pretty clear what is reasonable & unreasonable obedience, which may have to be resolved through conflict between family members (such as arguing, which occurs all the time).

This of course, prevents the idealization of a "nu" anti-statist model of family that will probably never occur until people whom are self-admitelly anti-coercive, anti-state, etc. start only breeding amongst themselves, possibly in more than 1 or 2 numbers of children, as a way of establishing a permanent population that will carry on, at the very least, anti-establishment memes, and the most, anti-statist views & culture.

Admitelly, the above gets into voluntary eugenics (not dysegenics, please look up the difference), & not everyone likes that, among one of the reasons, because it's not humanistic, despite the fact that individuals engage in eugenics on an unconscious level by choosing a mate to have kids with (although that is not the only drive in choosing a bearer of your children, obviously).

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Nitroadict — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:37:03 GMT

Physiocrat:

Brainpolice:

cultural conservatism is epistemically unjustifiable.

How so?

Because he said so?

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

twistedbydsign99 — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:11:43 GMT

Kenneth:

Stefan Molyneux says that family is the source of all statism as it instills a sense of blind obedience and 'might is right' mentality. Parents never explain why they order kids to do certain stuff or why actions are good or bad. Parents hold the 'gun of morality' in their hands and that morality is to follow whoever is in charge without any rational assessment. I hope I am not misrepresenting him but this is how I understand his theory. Children also never get to choose who their parents are so it is an involuntary relationship. Now contrast this with Mises' view of the family which, similar to Hoppe's view, is something opposed to statism and traditional family values should be conserved.

My guess is that traditional family values such as responsibility, independence, thrift, prudence are opposed to those values imposed by the welfare state and fractional reserve banking. State institutions infect families with these behavioural ills. So it is not that families are intrinsically evil, modern families are just so infected with statist 'values' like moral relativism and learned helplessness. As we can see in the ghettos and slums which are caused by things like rent control and public housing, families there are abusive and beat their families. These for me, are what Molyneux is railing or should rail against. It's wrong to generalize in saying that ALL families are evil.

What do you think?

Well I grew up without a father and I feel like it instilled a hatred of arbitrary authority in me. So I would say there might be some truth to it.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

hayekianxyz — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 23:25:45 GMT

ClaytonB:
I think this is an example of that "bohemian libertarianism" that Rothbard openly despised

When it suited him, that is. When he was attempt to court the New Left, it was quite a different matter indeed.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

scineram — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:11:19 GMT

Kenneth:
Stefan Molyneux says that family is the source of all statism as it instills a sense of blind obedience and 'might is right' mentality. Parents never explain why they order kids to do certain stuff or why actions are good or bad. Parents hold the 'gun of morality' in their hands and that morality is to follow whoever is in charge without any rational assessment. I hope I am not misrepresenting him but this is how I understand his theory. Children also never get to choose who their parents are so it is an involuntary relationship. Now contrast this with Mises' view of the family which, similar to Hoppe's view, is something opposed to statism and traditional family values should be conserved.

Because you cannot argue with small children. They are stupid.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:22:42 GMT

Kenneth:
Traditional families and corporations are 'socialist' or centrally planned structures but that doesn't necessarily translate into politics. Being in a heirarchical, centrally planned structure doesn't mean you are psychologically tuned to statism.

It works more complex than that. A parent that operates on a do as I say, not as I do basis will fail to instill any values to his kids because the kids will think of those values as arbitrary impositions rather than as matters of mutual respect. The kids are essentially left to their own devices. What is going to happen then? They will acquire values by imitation of people with the highest status. Initially, their parents and teachers. Later, celebrities.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

RogueMerc — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:31:00 GMT

I agree regarding the statements about atheism. I remember one going on in a tangent about centuries old crimes against humanity by Catholics and then using that to go after a catholic.

Another atheist filled site that goes overboard in accusing too many people of being fundamentalist is FSTDT.com. They even went after Ron Paul. Although, it seems as though some of the crazier anti-theists have left.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Kenneth — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:58:24 GMT

The problem in debating about religion is that atheists grossly misunderstand religious people. They make absurd claims that religious people believe that there is no need to be responsible because God will take care of us and other bs! I find most of Molyneux's arguments against religion as strawmen and arguments against fundamentalist religion.

Anyway, this discussion is about Molyneux's views on family and not religion.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Clayton — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:51:08 GMT

Brainpolice:

To see this, empirically, consider the two most anarchic cultures in existence today - Afghanistan and Somalia. Both countries have a clan-based, elder-ruled, patriarchal culture where your legal protections ultimately derive from your family.

They're also not libertarian societies by any stretch of the imagination,

True, but that is a values-conflict. I think the more important social problem than "fostering liberty" is breaking the legal double-standard which characterizes all statist societies. Liberty has its best chances in a society where coercively imposed legal double-standards do not exist. I do not believe that, in the absence of the state, all societies will be libertarian because of the fact of variation of the characteristics of individual humans and the cultures in which they exist.

which makes appealing to them as "functional libertarian anarchy" seem like a joke to me.

Well, I didn't.

What does tribalism and elder-rulership have to do with libertarian society?

As I said above, the absence of a legal double-standard is a crucial necessary condition for liberty. Liberty certainly will not pertain in the presence of the state-imposed legal double-standard and class-based political privileges. Tribal culture may not be libertarian but there is no reason that it could not be.

Clayton -

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Kenneth — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:47:40 GMT

Brainpolice:
At the philosophical level, what Molyneux has proposed is that the notion of inherent positive obligations to people simply because they are "family" cannot be reasonably justified and instills an unhealthy psychological atmosphere

I think this is a very accurate statement

Brainpolice:
that the learned behaviors within a particularly authoritarian family structure end up translating into the political level.

This is quite a shaky theory. Traditional families and corporations are 'socialist' or centrally planned structures but that doesn't necessarily translate into politics. Being in a heirarchical, centrally planned structure doesn't mean you are psychologically tuned to statism. If that were true then a stateless society having hierarchical structures like families and corporations would be a contradiction.

What I'm curious about is if the traditional family is so statist then why is it being broken down by the welfare state(promotes dependency) and fractional reserve banking(promotes wasteful spending). If the traditional family is statist, then it should be strengthened by the growth of the state, not undermined.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

RogueMerc — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:45:12 GMT

There seems to be a great misunderstanding here. I actually watched the videos where Stefan Molyneux talks about the family and statism. It is very clear that he does not say that families are inherently statist. He only said that abusive families lead to statism. Stefan Molyneux has at least one child of his own, as well as being married.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Nielsio — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:30:42 GMT

Kenneth:

Hey! Hey! Hey! Didn't I refer a specific podcast? You can check it out yourself if you like. Your hostility tells me you do not want to discuss this topic cause maybe it will undermine Stefan Molyneux whose many viewpoints(such as atheism) you espouse?

If you're going to claim that Molyneux has stated that the family is inherently evil then you're going to actually have to provide a quotation.

Molyneux has recently expanded his own family, so from the face of it your statement is completely non-sensical.

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Physiocrat — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:24:36 GMT

Brainpolice:

cultural conservatism is epistemically unjustifiable.

How so?

Re: What do you think of Molyneux's theory that family is the source of statism?

Brainpolice — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:19:38 GMT

Kenneth:

Hey! Hey! Hey! Didn't I refer a specific podcast? You can check it out yourself if you like. Your hostility tells me you do not want to discuss this topic cause maybe it will undermine Stefan Molyneux whose many viewpoints(such as atheism) you espouse?

From my experience, I first encountered him at Molyneux's website a number of years ago, so it makes sense why he'd be defensive (Molyneux is the one that got him into market anarchy). But it also makes sense why a LVMI associate would be hostile to Molyneux because of the greater likelyhood of accepting cultural conservative tendencies (reverance for "the family", theism, etc.). I think the cultural conservatives that react to Molyneux this way are wrong though, because cultural conservatism is epistemically unjustifiable. And that's ultimately what this "debate" is going to come down to: fence-sitters aside, whether or not one accepts culturally conservative viewpoints and the connection of those viewpoints to politics.