Political Theory

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:03:16 GMT

tgibson11:
This is no different than saying: I require food to exist. If all the existing food is owned by others, then that is violating my right of self-ownership. Or a more realistic example - I require a certain drug to cure a life-threatening disease? Again, we come back to the question of why land is different than everything else?

Food is a "good" provided by labor. A certain drug is the product of someone's labor. To require it be given to sustain someone's life would be creating a positive liberty framework. "Land" is not a "good" produced by human labor that is required to continue existing. To exist is to occupy a specific location in time space - they can not be separated.

tgibson11:
Land (technically, space) is necessary to live

No. Land is not a "necessity" to live like sustenance. To be a live as a human IS TO occupy land *somewhere*. They are not the same and can not be separated.

tgibson11:
Land is not the result of labor (you would presumably reject my food/medicine argument on this basis - what about water?)

Yes. See above.

In economic parlance the term "land" is used to describe everything in the material universe that pre-exists human labor. So water is a free good that we all have an individual equal access opportunity right to access/use so long as in our use we do not infringe on the equal access opportunity right of any other individual. Air is similar.

Water and air are a little bit of a different argument because you can exist for a short period of time without them so they can be separated. Not occupying a location while existing is not physically possible.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:49:17 GMT

Brainpolice:
If our premise is that noone can own that which pre-existed labor, then noone can own anything, because everything initially pre-existed labor (and pre-existed the existance of human beings altogether, for that matter). Therefore, geoism is simply inconsistant in that it still allows ownership over everything else, even though ownership over everything else would defy their own premise about that which pre-existed labor.

I am stating based on simple logic that you can't have exclusive use of land in an inelastic scarcity market without an obligation to those being excluded if you intend to uphold the fundamental tenet of libertarianism - the absolute right of self-ownership.

So you can own that which pre-exists human labor but only with an obligation to not economically disadvantage those you excluded. The appearance of economic rent determines whether or not the condition has been met.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

tgibson11 — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:24:36 GMT

WmBGreene:
Without labor a non-land good could not exist. No?

Yes, but that is merely defining land vs. non-land. I would like you to justify treating land differently from non-land with respect to property rights. I would say that without labor, property rights in land cannot exist either. I still do not see that you have provided a logical basis for making a distinction, unless you mean to do so with the following...

WmBGreene:
But one literally can not exist without occupying "land" *somewhere* (please don't argue the distinction between needing sustenance to continue to exist and having to occupy a specific location while existing) and if all somewheres are legally occupied you must pay a tribute or be gifted the right to occupy *some* location. Is not a right of self-ownership something we are born with?

This is no different than saying: I require food to exist. If all the existing food is owned by others, then that is violating my right of self-ownership. Or a more realistic example - I require a certain drug to cure a life-threatening disease? Again, we come back to the question of why land is different than everything else?

But I think I'm starting to "get it". Am I correct in summarizing your logic as follows?

Land (technically, space) is necessary to live
Land is not the result of labor (you would presumably reject my food/medicine argument on this basis - what about water?)
One's right to live cannot be dependent on the availability of unowned land (or space)

I would agree on the first point - this seems non-controversial. I would agree on the second point, but I do not consider this relevant to the question at hand - IMO, this is merely the reason why transformation via labor is the correct criteria for establishing property right in land. I disagree with the premise of the third point, that there is any such thing as a right to remain alive.

I think the root of the disagreement may be in the definition of self-ownership. The right of self-ownership includes the right to attempt to maintain one's life via one's own efforts. It does not include the right to remain, or to be kept, alive. If land or space is necessary for me to survive, I have the right to obtain it by homesteading unowned land, and I have the right to exchange my labor or the products thereof with someone else for permission to exist on their land. I do not have the right to be provided with any means of sustenance, land included.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:50:47 GMT

tgibson11:
Please justify your distinction between land and non-land

Without labor a non-land good could not exist. No?

tgibson11:
What if I have in my possession the only <any-non-land-good> known to exist.

How did it come into existence as a "good" if not by labor?

tgibson11:
Exclusive ownership of any good by definition creates an economic disadvantage to everybody else

Before or after the application of labor?

Distributive justice is only concerned with obligations before the application of labor.

Corrective justice is only concerned with obligations after the application of labor.

tgibson11:
Property in the fruits of one's labor is a necessary condition of self-ownership.

Agreed.

tgibson11:
Property specifically in land is not. One can live quite well without owning any land whatsoever, and many people do.

Yes. But one literally can not exist without occupying "land" *somewhere* (please don't argue the distinction between needing sustenance to continue to exist and having to occupy a specific location while existing) and if all somewheres are legally occupied you must pay a tribute or be gifted the right to occupy *some* location. Is not a right of self-ownership something we are born with?

Re: Libertarian Socialism

tgibson11 — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:29:15 GMT

Please justify your distinction between land and non-land.

What if I have in my possession the only <any-non-land-good> known to exist. Clearly this does not leave enough or "as good as" for everyone else. Do I have the right to exclusive ownership of it or not?

Exclusive ownership of any good by definition creates an economic disadvantage to everybody else - they would obviously be better off if it belonged to them instead.

Property in the fruits of one's labor is a necessary condition of self-ownership. Property specifically in land is not. One can live quite well without owning any land whatsoever, and many people do.

But really, I would like to know how you justify the distinction between land and non-land (assuming you do). I feel like I'm having to set up straw-men to argue against here.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

Bostwick — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:54:39 GMT

WmBGreene:
The sole role of governance as legitimate agency is to insure that in acting to access/use what is owned in common one individual does not infringe on the individual equal access claim of any other individual.

Institutions built on moral inconsistencies are never legitimate.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:54:49 GMT

tgibson11:
how does your planting corn NOT infringe on everyone else's supposed individual equal claim to use the land?

Has enough and as good been left in common for others?

tgibson11:
no one can do anything without infringing on the rights of everyone else, or at least not without getting their unanimous permission first.

Unanimous consent (consensus) is required in collectively (joint) ownership not in common ownership.

tgibson11:
it follows that individuals have the exclusive right to that which pre-existed labor to the extent that they have transformed it via their labor.

Yes, so long as they do not economically disadvantage anyone else by their exclusive use because that violates the absolute right of self-ownership of those being excluded.

tgibson11:
If there cannot be exclusive individual property rights in land, there cannot be in anything else either (excepting maybe one's physical person). It's either one or the other

One can only have exclusive use of land to the extent that it does not violate the right of self-ownership of those you exclude. If you do, then it requires an obligation to those you excluded.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

Brainpolice — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:42:52 GMT

tgibson11:

WmBGreene:

Brainpolice:
It is impossible to produce anything else without some kind of established ownership on the land which those resources come from.

It is not impossible to separate the products of labor from what pre-exists labor. If I apply my labor to plant and harvest corn, the products of labor are mine whereas the land itself doesn't have to be. My claim to the land is only an individual equal claim not an exclusive claim.

This is absurd. First, how does your planting corn NOT infringe on everyone else's supposed individual equal claim to use the land? This is exactly what Brainpolice is saying. If your theory is correct, then no one can do anything without infringing on the rights of everyone else, or at least not without getting their unanimous permission first.

Second, matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed (nuclear reactions aside). Any product of labor must necessarily consist exclusively of that which pre-existed labor. Labor consists merely in re-arranging or transforming that which pre-existed. You seem to concede that individuals have the exclusive right to the fruits of their labor. Then it follows that individuals have the exclusive right to that which pre-existed labor to the extent that they have transformed it via their labor. And there you have precisely the natural law/Rothbardian theory of property rights in land. If there cannot be exclusive individual property rights in land, there cannot be in anything else either (excepting maybe one's physical person). It's either one or the other - this Georgist distinction between land and non-land leads to nonsense.

Right. Property is not spontaneously generated out of thin air. All property, in order to initially come into ownership, must involve the transformation of that which has been previously unused, I.E. that which pre-existed labor. Land is not alone in pre-existing labor. Everything that comes from the land is initially in this unused state as well. Everything pre-existed labor. And (nearly/essentially) everything comes from the land. There is no way to own that which comes from the land without first establishing some kind of ownership of that land.

If the geoists were consistant in their false dychotomy, they must oppose all property ownership, because all of it initially pre-existed labor before it was brought into ownership. Strictly speaking, noone "creates" anything. Land, just like everything else, is a "product of labor" to the extent that it is initially transformed. To allude to his corn example, the mere act of planting and harvesting the corn on the land is transformation of the land and requires some kind of individual exercise of ownership over the land which that corn comes from.

I don't know how much more simple I can break it down, and this is starting to get repetitive, but i'll try this one more time. If our premise is that noone can own that which pre-existed labor, then noone can own anything, because everything initially pre-existed labor (and pre-existed the existance of human beings altogether, for that matter). Therefore, geoism is simply inconsistant in that it still allows ownership over everything else, even though ownership over everything else would defy their own premise about that which pre-existed labor.

And, as has been pointed out, it is physically impossible for everyone to exercise their equal quotal share of the land. Individuals cannot be in all places at once. A new born baby in Pakistan cannot realistically exercise their one-six-billionth share of a plot of land in Texas. Therefore, in practise, even an attempt at a Georgist land system will "devolve" into some kind of individual ownership, wether justly aquired or not. I suspect that, in practise, it would lead to something resembling a state (unjustly) allocating land property titles to particular individuals in the name of equal ownership. In short, georgism leads to a system of fuedalism in the name of defying feudalism.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

tgibson11 — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:37:49 GMT

WmBGreene:
Brainpolice:
It is impossible to produce anything else without some kind of established ownership on the land which those resources come from.

It is not impossible to separate the products of labor from what pre-exists labor. If I apply my labor to plant and harvest corn, the products of labor are mine whereas the land itself doesn't have to be. My claim to the land is only an individual equal claim not an exclusive claim.

This is absurd. First, how does your planting corn NOT infringe on everyone else's supposed individual equal claim to use the land? This is exactly what Brainpolice is saying. If your theory is correct, then no one can do anything without infringing on the rights of everyone else, or at least not without getting their unanimous permission first.

Second, matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed (nuclear reactions aside). Any product of labor must necessarily consist exclusively of that which pre-existed labor. Labor consists merely in re-arranging or transforming that which pre-existed. You seem to concede that individuals have the exclusive right to the fruits of their labor. Then it follows that individuals have the exclusive right to that which pre-existed labor to the extent that they have transformed it via their labor. And there you have precisely the natural law/Rothbardian theory of property rights in land. If there cannot be exclusive individual property rights in land, there cannot be in anything else either (excepting maybe one's physical person). It's either one or the other - this Georgist distinction between land and non-land leads to nonsense.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:11:51 GMT

SMacaskill:
For Socialism to exist you need a government to do the redistribution of wealth and property. Or else who is going to do the redistribution? I don't think a Libertarian would consistently volunteer to redistribute his property to everyone else whenever he makes a gain.
Libertarian Socialist is an oxymoron. He is either a Libertarian or a Socialist.

The point is that the orginal socialists (Thomas Hodgkins) wanted to insure distributive justice by looking at predistribution property claims where an individual equal access claim to what is owned in common is to be enforced and thus labor can no longer be separated from the means of production (capital).

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:02:17 GMT

Rios9000:
each individual room is usually well treated, but the common areas are completely neglected. It's a small scale version of the tragedy of the commons. Only some sort of cohersive state could prevent the common areas from being neglected and abused. So when expanded to an entire society; the choice becomes either state cohersion or an enviromental catastrophe.

This is a false duality. Hardin later wrote a paper called "the tragedy of the unmanaged commons" to clear up the misuse of his original work.

The problem is twofold:

1. the state and governance as legitimate agency are different.

2. collective and common ownership are not the same.

The sole role of governance as legitimate agency is to insure that in acting to access/use what is owned in common one individual does not infringe on the individual equal access claim of any other individual. The common asset must be preserved for future generations by only accessing and using the sustainable yield.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

WmBGreene — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:55:49 GMT

Brainpolice:
It is impossible to produce anything else without some kind of established ownership on the land which those resources come from.

It is not impossible to separate the products of labor from what pre-exists labor. If I apply my labor to plant and harvest corn, the products of labor are mine whereas the land itself doesn't have to be. My claim to the land is only an individual equal claim not an exclusive claim.

If I were the first human being on the earth I could go anywhere and do anything. Those activities are not abrogated by the addition of others but rather only transformed into an individual equal claim.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

Inquisitor — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:41:56 GMT

I was mainly referring to Hoppe's revised account of homesteading as first-use, but the way you phrased it is good as well.

To clarify something that seems to be confusing most here: libertarian socialists, to my knowledge, believe all/most property should be held in common, managed 'democratically'. Hence there is no redistribution, since the commune (or whatever you want to call it) owns everything. They believe this is more conducive to liberty than private ownership. I am not sure why they call it 'socialism' though, when socialism is the transitional stage to communism and is inherently statist. At any rate, based on their logic of communal ownership they should be vying for world government, not anarchy.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

Brainpolice — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:25:50 GMT

Inquisitor:

Well since the "land" pre-exists human labor it can not be the result of human labor.

For. The. Last. Time. Labour. Does. Not. Establish. Ownership.

To clarify: No material resources are "created" out of thin air. All property, in order to come into ownership, initially involves the transformation of previously unused resources, I.E. original appropriation or homesteading. All previously unused resources come from, tada, the land. Hence, in the abscence of land ownership, there is no such thing as property in anything else. Excluding self-ownership, land ownership precedes all other property. Homesteading or original appropriation of resources precedes all market exchange. It is impossible to produce anything else without some kind of established ownership on the land which those resources come from. Land ownership comes into existance just like any other thing: by being transformed through labor. So labor does come into play with land just like anything else. Labor does establish ownership when we are talking about original appropriation of previously unowned/unused resources. It just doesn't establish ownership in the way that socialists tend to think it does.

These are some of the reasons why I'm not a georgist. "The Ethics of Liberty" explains this much better than I can.

Re: Libertarian Socialism

Rios9000 — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:36:54 GMT

"Moreover, think of land in common as an apartment shared by three individuals, each have their own room. They have interest in their own room, and can decorate it as they want, etc but they don't own the room as PROPERTY, thus they cannot start smashing the walls without the consent of every other member of the commons because it all belongs to all and at the same time to none."

This idea, even if such an arrangement could be entered into with out property rights as some have pointed out, is problematic. My father owns a property management company and he has mentioned several times that each individual room is usually well treated, but the common areas are completely neglected. It's a small scale version of the tragedy of the commons. Only some sort of cohersive state could prevent the common areas from being neglected and abused. So when expanded to an entire society; the choice becomes either state cohersion or an enviromental catastrophe.