Political Theory

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Joe — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:29:54 GMT

but you could also use classical liberal. Thats really where the ideas that resemble modern libertarian ideas come from; liberalism, not conservatism.

Politically, in history you could have been a Bourbon Democrat or a member of the 'Old Right' and had more or less the same libertarianish views.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Gipper — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:39:16 GMT

I think Bastiat had it right when he said:

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law."

I thnk because of the State controlling what people know, they have really lost their moral sense.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

scineram — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:52:50 GMT

Individual liberty is an all important value. Never was, never will be. So I doubt it.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

BrianAnderson — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:46:52 GMT

I think the word you're looking for as "paleo-conservatism"

I was never really sure what that meant. But I just looked it up and you're right, haha. I'll start using that instead so people don't get confused and I think I'm talking about neo-con.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Skyler Collins — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:42:55 GMT

@Brian, I think the word you're looking for as "paleo-conservatism". This philosophy is very close to (minarchist-)libertarianism. Conservativism today usually means "neo-conservatism".

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Kakugo — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:39:20 GMT

krazy kaju:

I don't understand people's pessimism here. "The masses" don't need an intricate understanding of philosophy or economics to be for freedom. In fact, most libertarians and Ron Paul-type conservatives today do not have the slightest understanding of philosophy or economics. The greatest challenge that libertarians face is changing the general cultural beliefs of the majority away from interventionism, authoritarianism, and statism towards freedom, individual responsibility, and pride in oneself. We're fighting more of a cultural war than a political or philosophical one.

Freedom is a populist ideology.

I am one of the pessimists.

There are a number of reasons I am getting more and more pessimist by the day (apart from age, of course).

The first reason is the entitlement mentality which is universal nowadays. There's no other way to put it: the masses want "free stuff" and they feel like they have some God-given right to it. As all addictions this is getting very serious very quick.

The second reason is the deep-seated envy many persons have towards anyone who's better off than themselves. This envy is often coupled with the usual sentiment "you have more money than me so you must be cheating on your taxes, exploiting your employees, destroying the environment etc".

The third reason is how easy is to scare the masses with immaginary hobgoblins. Think about the whole "War on Terror" saga. People are still buying into the whole "they hate us for our freedoms" and believe Afghanistan and/or Iran harbor the turban-wearing equivalent of Fu Manchu. They buy even more that "speculators" and "tax evaders" are the cause of all our problems.

The fourth reason is some sort of childish belief in State authority as a panacea for all troubles. The histeria (I cannot call it another way) which surrounded the election of President Obama is only one of the most recent example. This is coupled with another similar belief that you should vote one party just to avoid the other going into power: this is particularly strong among baby boomers. The usual example "if you don't vote for candidate X the Reds will win and turn this place into a Soviet regime". After the election you are usually left to wonder why candidate X's politics are usually the same as the ones proposed by the Reds if not even more left-leaning.

The only thing we can do is explain our reasons but we should be ready to accept the fact that people will never "snap out of it". I think we should take the same approach used to cure drug addiction. Short of sending people off to rehab clinics we should warn them of the long-term risks associated with their condition. Of course most addicts won't give a damn but when faced with the risks their own children, whose future is being mortgaged on a daily basis, many will at least listen for a few minutes.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Clayton — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:17:13 GMT

Of course not. People generally will never understand or accept the ideas of economics ... because they are not economists.

As for liberty, the problem is that nobody wants liberty... except for themselves. Liberty of others invariably means trampling of my interests. The freedom to party is the freedom to keep me up all night when I need to be to work by 5:30am. So, people are naturally opposed to the freedom of others exactly because they want to protect their own interests against potential infringement.

The real problem is not freedom per se or economics per se. The real problem is the moral/legal double-standard of the state order. Until this is confronted by the public-at-large (the "masses"), widespread freedom has very little prospects. If you want to be free, it's basically up to you to chisel out your own niche of freedom and try to protect yourself from the pilfering of envious friends, family and taxmen. It has always been this way to one degree or another but the state order makes it much riskier to be free, so you have to be more circumspect than at any other time in history.

Clayton -

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

BrianAnderson — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:13:25 GMT

Contrary to your beliefs, conservatives and libertarians don't have the same viewpoints.

No need to be cranky. Contrary to your assumptions about my beliefs, conservatives/libertarians share many viewpoints. When I say 'conservative', I'm talking about old conservativism, which is basically libertarianism. More or less a DGAF attitude towards the government.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Giant_Joe — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:51:24 GMT

I think people calling themselves libertarians has a way of gaining admiration and respect. It shows that you stick to your principles and are possibly willing to go fight for a cause. People are drawn to that kind of positive attitude.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

wolfman — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:18:30 GMT

Excellent observation and judgment. Could not agree more.

ama gi wrote the following post at Thu, Jul 15 2010 2:05 PM:

I think that calling ourselves libertarians has a way of scaring people off. People disgusted by the State are often also disgusted by political labels.

If you want to get the people who dislike government and politics, you don't want to describe them with a word ending with "-ism."

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

ama gi — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:05:39 GMT

I think that calling ourselves libertarians has a way of scaring people off. People disgusted by the State are often also disgusted by political labels.

If you want to get the people who dislike government and politics, you don't want to describe them with a word ending with "-ism."

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

wolfman — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:49:08 GMT

TRUE. Yet we are told what we want to hear so they can do what they please.

Being lied to, manipulated and controlled is not the same as falling.

Also 100 % libertarianism at least would keep everything the same, most probable it would be worse for the majority of society.

The Late Andrew Ryan wrote the following post at Thu, Jul 15 2010 1:34 PM:

"The masses can absorb libertarian & real economic ideas but they will never be indoctrinated by them."

Why? They fall for things that make much less sense and with far worse rhetoric

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

The Late Andrew Ryan — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:34:16 GMT

"The masses can absorb libertarian & real economic ideas but they will never be indoctrinated by them."

Why? They fall for things that make much less sense and with far worse rhetoric

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

wolfman — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:25:12 GMT

The masses can absorb libertarian & real economic ideas but they will never be indoctrinated by them.

This is where AE fails & libertarian movements fail to attract individuals.

Re: Are the masses ever going to accept libertarianism?

Capitalist_Pig — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:54:33 GMT

Brian:

I find that the majority of 'masses' who accept the conservative/libertarian viewpoint

Contrary to your beliefs, conservatives and libertarians don't have the same viewpoints.