Political Theory

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

JAlanKatz — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:42:39 GMT

I'm more concerned about the meaning of a phrase like this:

Maybe there is something in the U.S. that I'm not aware of affecting this, but I haven't seen anything specifically establishing that your physical form embodies citizenship or anything establishing that the United States is legally defined as a spacial dimension pertaining to this.

No, I don't think anyone defines the United States as a 'spacial dimension,' that is true. I also don't know what you're saying here. On the other hand, I certainly know the meaning of words like 'put you in a cage for not paying your taxes.' If your intent is to work legally in a foreign country, then in most countries your employer will report to the US that you are a citizen getting paid by them. They do often tend to miss things like that if you don't file a return, but that's not a guarantee. On the other hand, renouncing your citizenship means you have no legal ties to the US. It also means you don't get certain privileges of citizenship, such as a passport. If you don't take on a new citizenship, you won't have any passport, making travel somewhat complicated. I don't know what you're arguing about here. I don't know if you're claiming 1) the laws are different from what the department of State says, in which case you've brought no evidence to support that, and it doesn't matter unless you expect some court to decide you're right and the the department is wrong 2) there is nothing at all involved in renouncing your citizenship, and you don't need the government to approve, which again is true in some moral sense, but means nothing for how they'll actually treat you 3) something else.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Caley McKibbin — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:35:01 GMT

The rest of your post looks to me like a collection of words.

Well, you don't know the meaning of the words you are using.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

JAlanKatz — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:31:20 GMT

Citizenship is a legal status. A citizen is considered by the gov to be subject to US laws, regardless of his location. A citizen is considered liable to taxation on his income, regardless of his location. Other governments cooperate with the US in this, so one does not escape enforcement simply by leaving the country. If you revoke your citizenship, you will not be subject to these laws. On the other hand, if you decide not to pay taxes and remain a citizen, and you are caught, they will extradite you and put you in a cage, and if you resist, you'll be shot. The rest of your post looks to me like a collection of words.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Caley McKibbin — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 05:53:53 GMT

What are you talking about? I'm saying there is no evidence that there are statues saying that you have to do these things. What does that have to do with armed thugs? Who is going to shoot you? I have never heard of anyone being shot for these things.

Citizenship is an identity created by your birth certificate being signed by your parents. I can't see why you would need to get it revoked. You just need to abandon it so that it is not associated with you. Maybe there is something in the U.S. that I'm not aware of affecting this, but I haven't seen anything specifically establishing that your physical form embodies citizenship or anything establishing that the United States is legally defined as a spacial dimension pertaining to this. Until I see such a thing I wouldn't assume that you can't abandon citizenship at any time.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

JAlanKatz — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 05:43:24 GMT

Not even remotely what I said. If an armed thug tells me I must jump, it in no way follows that I must jump. It does follow, though, that this particular armed thug thinks I must jump, or at least wants me to jump. It follows that it's likely he'll shoot me if I don't.

If an armed thug tells me "the law says..." then it either says that, or it doesn't, but it's beside the point, because if I don't listen to him, he's going to shoot me. You can be 'right' all you want about what the idiots in Washington wrote, it might not say what they claim it does, but you don't appoint judges, you don't hire policemen, and you don't have the firepower to get your point across. Besides, what makes the law more right and good than what this particular armed thug is dictating? Both are simply dictates by the powerful.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Doubtus — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 04:55:26 GMT

You can revoke your passport in another country. All you have to do is surrender your passport in an American embassy of a foreign nation. If you do not attain citizenship of that country, you will be rendered stateless.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Caley McKibbin — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 03:53:33 GMT

According to the government (armed thugs in Washington) both of those statements are true.

You believe everything that state agencies tell you? If some Department of X representive told you that the law says you must jump would you say, "How high?" You act like this stuff comes from reliable sources.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

JAlanKatz — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 23:57:20 GMT

According to the government (armed thugs in Washington) both of those statements are true. They are false in some broader sense of morality. It's like being mugged in Central Park. According to the mugger, you "need" to hand over your wallet. Is he incorrect, or just evil?

Please don't bore me with legalistic arguments about it. Who writes the laws again?

Now, if you want to say there ought to be some distinction between state and government, and the government ought to have no authority over citizenship, you're right. But they took over that in 1786 or thereabouts when forming the state department.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

JAlanKatz — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 23:54:55 GMT

They were pretty vague on that. They said renouncing doesn't prevent other countries from deporting you, but I don't see how that is possible. I don't know what they'd do with you once you got here, but certainly you wouldn't arrive under the radar, so to speak.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Caley McKibbin — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 21:56:14 GMT

It depends on how you go about it. There are people who are open about it because what they are doing is legitimate. If you try to use a method such as "it's unconstitutional"(like Irwin Schiff) you will get into trouble.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

BrianAnderson — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 21:41:27 GMT

Citizenship is not social security or paying taxes. Why would you not be able to state it?

Yeah, I understand that. I just listed those two things as ways of distancing yourself from state control. I wasn't sure if anyone on here who doesn't pay taxes would openly say it on a forum that could be tracked since they might get in trouble.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Caley McKibbin — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 20:18:12 GMT

Believe it or not, I actually remembering seeing answers to 1 on a government website, it may have been in the FAQs of the state department or something like that.

If you believed government websites you would conclude that you have to file income tax forms and that you need to use social security to work.

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Caley McKibbin — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 20:12:49 GMT

I'm assuming that if you have "informally" (for lack of better words) revoked your citizenship by tearing up your Social Security card, not paying taxes, etc. that you can't exactly state that on here.

Citizenship is not social security or paying taxes. Why would you not be able to state it?

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

Metus — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 18:41:22 GMT

So it is possible to travel abroad, do something that gets you deported back, revoke your US-citizenship, get deported and thus still be in the US?

Re: Revocation of Citizenship

JAlanKatz — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 18:36:58 GMT

Ok, I looked it up. A person may revoke citizenship without becoming a citizen of another state. Such a person is stateless. However, you can only renounce your citizenship from abroad. You may not renounce your citizenship in the US. A stateless person, of course, has no passport and will find traveling quite difficult. I would bet you'd have trouble getting a visa to enter the US without a passport. Here is the quote from the SoS:

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if they were not stateless, they would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). If found ineligible for a visa or the VWPP to come to the U.S., a renunciant, under certain circumstances, could be barred from entering the United States. Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual back to the United States in some non-citizen status.