Political Theory

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Anarcho-libertarian — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:46:51 GMT

DD5:

The abolish the CIA (Ron Paul) and stick to the Constitution stuff sounds like rhetoric coming out of a bunch of pacifist and naive ideologues. And justifiably so in my opinion.

Edit: I sometimes think that Ron Paul saying he would abolish the CIA on mainstream media is his way of making sure he doesn't accidently get elected.

Setting aside the idea of some/all of the states forming and funding their own intelligence agencies in the absence of the unconstitutional CIA, I'm curious as to what you believe the benefit of the CIA is? To me they just meddle around the world inciting unnecessary blowback.

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Jonathan Patterson — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:10:41 GMT

The idea that a nation would invade us to take our resources away as it is often argued has no merit becuase the costs would be too great for the invading nation. Peaceful trade is the most economical way of obtaining resources your country lacks. But Peaceful trade breaks down when protectionist laws are passed, trade barriers are erected, and as we are seeing now....currency wars unfold. War is simply the end game of economic protectionism....and as long as we have a "guvment" we will always have a bunch of self important ass clowns in that "guvment" thinking that they NEED TO DO SOMETHING by making it appear that they have the answer to your economic problems. Their answer is always trade barriers, regulation,threatening rhetoric, and protectionism. This leads to tensions between nations and at some point war and conflict.

The more power we give to the state over our economy, the more war we will have. The more we try to manipulate the free market and free trade the more blood will be shed in the end because in the end the government is nothing more than an institution that has a monopoly on the use of force and when all their economic central planning blows up in their face and they are backed into a corner they look for a scape-goat whether it be internal or external....and off we go marching to fight in the name of the same damn people who created the problem to start with

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Spideynw — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 22:00:39 GMT

auctionguy10:

So obviously, the U.S. government does not care if there is a military. So why doesn't the U.S. government just invade Mexico right now?

Maybe they will. Just say that some al-qaeda were found operating in mexico and there you go. Looking at the past 100 years of US government wars and bombings, I wouldn't put anything past the most powerful military in the world. As the drug cartel violence gets worse in Mexico, it gives the US more of a reason to go in there if they feel the mexican gov't isn't up to the task.

My point is that saying the U.S. government will invade the Mexican territory if the Mexican government got rid of its military is just fear-mongering.

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

auctionguy10 — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:10:20 GMT

So obviously, the U.S. government does not care if there is a military. So why doesn't the U.S. government just invade Mexico right now?

Maybe they will. Just say that some al-qaeda were found operating in mexico and there you go. Looking at the past 100 years of US government wars and bombings, I wouldn't put anything past the most powerful military in the world. As the drug cartel violence gets worse in Mexico, it gives the US more of a reason to go in there if they feel the mexican gov't isn't up to the task.

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Spideynw — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 18:59:33 GMT

Marko:

Neither the Somalian nor Pakistani governments have militaries?

It is not Somali or Pakistani government militaries the US is intervening against, but the people battling the governments/militaries. It is not bombing state entities.

So obviously, the U.S. government does not care if there is a military. So why doesn't the U.S. government just invade Mexico right now?

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

FleetCenturion — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:59:34 GMT

Gipper:
We invaded Afghanistan, we are fighting farmers and peasants that live in caves and shacks and yet with our big bad military and all the technology we have, we can't leave.

This is not because the military doesn't have the means or the will to win, but because politicians insist on nation building rather than bringing the war to an end. If they want to end the conflict, just bomb them all forward into the stone age, then come back home and drink lots of beer. The goal is not to get the fighting over with, but to prolong it as long as possible So they tie the hands of those who do the fighting with endless red tape and rules for how to conduct a war. Since Korea, we have made a habit of losing a war, while winning all the battles.

It's funny, though, that since the '08 elections, I haven't seen a single anti-war rally. Even Bush never gave us a date of 2014 before, but I guess everyone just feels so much better about being over there now.

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

K.C. Farmer — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:23:06 GMT

Hmm...

Mexico is invading the U.S. now. If the military were abolished, then I don't think that would change. The state of Mexico and an entire ethnic group wants the Southwestern U.S., and claims the territory as theirs. Russia would seize Alaska, reclaiming their rights to that territory. Most of the U.S. would break off as independent states.

Military invasion is not really that accurate. The question should be, without the presence of force or the threat of force what's to stop another country, ethnic group or a given population from laying claim to territories now considered to belong to the U.S. by the U.S. government?

Now by abolishing the military I assume you are not suggesting that individuals give up their property rights. The challenge then becomes two fold. First, defending individual property rights, which doesn't necessarily require a government military. Second, the massive homesteading that results in a defenseless state (or more correctly, a state incapable of implementing the use of force).

The resources of the U.S. are highly valued, so to suggest that a U.S. without the means to implement the use of force would be left alone ignores the subjective value of individuals and the desire of other nations to acquire resources. These other states would have no real desire to control the lives of present U.S. citizens, but there's no doubt in my mind that they would want a cut of vast, unused resources of the land and waters of the U.S. In that sense, these other states become homesteaders. Military invasion under these conditions would be nonsensical, unless the desire is to control or enslave a populace. There really is no economic advantage in that, but I could imagine a fanatical religious movement might attempt it. Democracy, as a religion, has certainly tried.

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

WisR — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:44:48 GMT

Wolverines!

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Marko — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 06:34:40 GMT

Neither the Somalian nor Pakistani governments have militaries?

It is not Somali or Pakistani government militaries the US is intervening against, but the people battling the governments/militaries. It is not bombing state entities.

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

auctionguy10 — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 00:43:30 GMT

The Pakistani government has a military- in terms of active troops its one of the top ten largest in the world. They're just ok with killing the people in the tribal areas

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Spideynw — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 23:57:12 GMT

Marko:

How is this not just pure fear-mongering? When was the last time the US government people invaded a place that had no military?

How about right now? Or maybe the bombs being droppd on Somalia or Pakistani tribal areas are just figments of my imagination??

Neither the Somalian nor Pakistani governments have militaries?

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Marko — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 23:39:24 GMT

How is this not just pure fear-mongering? When was the last time the US government people invaded a place that had no military?

How about right now? Or maybe the bombs being droppd on Somalia or Pakistani tribal areas are just figments of my imagination??

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Autolykos — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 18:44:21 GMT

DD5:
I see that now. He's talking about abolishing the military only. You don't kill just part of the cancer or even most of it. It would be more productive to talk about abolishing the State. I mean, if you're going to be so radical at the dinner table anyway....you might as well go all the way.

Whether you think it's more productive has no bearing on the intent of the thread, as outlined by the title and OP. You're effectively saying the OP should've started a different thread from the one he actually did start. How is that not off-topic?

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

Lenti — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 18:10:49 GMT

I have one question: Is there a possibility other governments (take China as an example) would invade in order to protect themselves from the same fate as the federal government here? Might China be afraid that if the people they control see what happened in the United States they might replicate it? I'm going out on a limb here haha

Re: Who would invade us if we abolished our military?

DD5 — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:17:59 GMT

I see that now. He's talking about abolishing the military only. You don't kill just part of the cancer or even most of it. It would be more productive to talk about abolishing the State. I mean, if you're going to be so radical at the dinner table anyway....you might as well go all the way.

The abolish the CIA (Ron Paul) and stick to the Constitution stuff sounds like rhetoric coming out of a bunch of pacifist and naive ideologues. And justifiably so in my opinion.

Edit: I sometimes think that Ron Paul saying he would abolish the CIA on mainstream media is his way of making sure he doesn't accidently get elected.