Political Theory

Re: nazism and barbarism

garegin — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:23:52 GMT

himler used a term but i can't find it now. it means punishing of family members of the criminal.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Kakugo — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:06:23 GMT

Germanic laws rotated around two principles.

The first rotated around blood feud, called faida: the old "an eye for an eye" also cited in the Bible. It was of course a most primitive principle and not exclusively Germanic.

The second, and most famous, was weregild, or "price for a man". It was one of the greatest achievements of the Germanic civilization and it reigned supreme until the Carolingian era. It replaced the custom of "legalized vengeance" with a system of money reparations for blood crimes. Of course it didn't apply to slaves (being considered property their slaying was to be compensated like any other case of property damage) and not all men were equal. among some people women were worth more than men of similar rank and among others clergymen were worth more than noblemen of similar rank . Some weregilds were incredibly elaborate: for example the Edict of Rothari, the great Lombard King, even specified particular reparation if a man was hurt or slain while riding a horse.

Having said that Himmler probably just applied to the old custom of blood feud: you hurt my fuhrer, I'll hurt your family. An eye for an eye, it's as simple as that. Himmler's beliefs were invariably confused and included a mish-mash of XIX century Germanic renaissance, astrology and various brands of occultism. After his SS wiped out Ernst Rohm's SA in the Night of Long Knives, his previously second-level movement was showered with money and he spent fortunes in pursue of obscure esoteric and historical secrets. His passion for both the occult and ancient Germanic history has perhaps been exagerated by post-war propaganda but it's well known Hitler himself (a well known materialist and skeptic) often angrily rebuked him for wasting time and money on such things as astrologers and useless historical research.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Stranger — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:15:33 GMT

Naziism can only be understood as a cultural movement with a political arm. The Nazis were innovators in art and cinema, and they revered modernized folk art like Wagner's Ring. They also innovated the use of logos (an innovation so powerful their main logo is still banned in Germany).

Inspiring themselves from ancient barbarian practices was one more way to distinguish themselves from the cultural mores of Christian-Aristocratic German tradition.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Albert — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:53:04 GMT

I wouldn't mind even if the post was about baiting right wingers or not, unless I understand your argument and what you base it on, it is hard to comment.

But I am beginning to see where your argument started:

Even on Wikipedia the definition of Nazism says "Far right" extremism and then it ascribes character traits like racism and supremacists as common to the far right.

So in your opening you make the statement:

"i really think that right-wingers all over the world have this trend. sexism, racism, envying jewish money, torturing prisoners, nuking a-rabs, putting natives above immigrants (germany first)"

So my reply has two prongs:

First I dispute that he Nazis were a classical "right wing" or conservative organization
But even if i give you that point, it does not hold that other conservative thinkers have those above mentioned traits, nor that it is typical for conservative governments to lead to extremist regimes with death camps

First I dispute that he Nazis were a classical "right wing" or conservative organization

Here is some more on Nazi policy from Wikipedia:

"They declared support for a nationalist form of socialism that was to provide for the Aryan race and the German nation: economic security, social welfare programs for workers, a just wage, honour for workers' importance to the nation, and protection from capitalist exploitation.^[18]"

None of this will sit well with classical conservatives. This is left wing socialism.

You (and Wikipedia) automatically classify it as right wing because it has elements of racism, supremacy and xenophobia in it. There is a knee jerk reaction by uninformed especially the news media to force these two into the same category.(that even within itself is a form of xenophobia designed to make opposing arguments irrelevant)I will handle that in point two but that is not a useful conclusion.

The Nazis like all extremist organizations on the left and the right, used whatever popular slogans out there would make them the most popular and then they would rewrite or ignore or lie about it when they are later no longer following that philosophy.

But even if i give you that point, it does not hold that other conservative thinkers have those above mentioned traits, nor that it is typical for conservative governments to lead to extremist regimes with death camps.

Xenophobia is a particularly useful idea to stir up hysteria amongst the masses, especially if you can also claim that they (them other minded people)are responsible for our brothers and sisters suffering. It is used by all effective revolutionaries and dictators and even todays politicians (eg. those socialist democrats are just plain evil, those stupid uneducated conservatives don't know how to argue)

Jews that hate Arabs, Arabs that hate Jews protestants that hate catholics, Muslims that hate Christians, vica versa. endless examples.

It is done by all groups and all factions

The KKK was heavily supported by southern democrats. Republicans played a large role in freeing the slaves,conservatives do not hate minorities or women or the poor, that is politicalspeak by the left. They don't want laws made that favor these or any other privileged group to have legislation giving them special rights and special status. That is not the same as hating them.

There are many many examples of left wing racism (Jesse Jackson) and right wing altruism and consequently horrible examples of torture of prisoners, militarism etc etc on both sides.

Stupidity and barbarism knows no political boundaries.

As I said before the common thread you will find in all of these horrible regimes is that extremism is usually based on some claim of moral superiority and higher ethical standards in the root stages of the organization and that evolves into such "superior thinkers" claiming for themselves the right to force the others to believe their truth.

It happens with right wing, left wing and middle of the road organizations

Re: nazism and barbarism

garegin — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 06:07:37 GMT

"I just don't understand why you bring Right wingers into your argument, and what proof you have that the majority of them have the traits you claim."

because conservatism historically is the idea of preserving traditional norms, often resorting to appeal to tradition. there is a crucial difference between nazis and stalin or che guavera. the reds were not trying to justify their actions by romantisising the old customs.

We must be honest, decent, loyal and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech, does not interest me in the slightest. What other nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary, by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Himler

the nazis were not interested in proposing universal solutions or changing the world. they only wanted prosperity for their own kind. this is completely different weltanschauung.

as i said again, this post is not about baiting right-wingers but exploring the cultural aspect of nazis.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Albert — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:53:16 GMT

Yes I agree, the Nazis had many anti intellectual and barbaric traits. So did many other totalitarian groups like the Khmer Rouge and the Communists.

I just don't understand why you bring Right wingers into your argument, and whyat proof you have that the majority of them have the traits you claim.

Re: nazism and barbarism

EmperorNero — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 08:13:21 GMT

And a right-winger is someone who is emotional, anti-intellectual and impulsive, as distinguished from the rationalistic left? Do you have that understanding of left and right?

Re: nazism and barbarism

garegin — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 06:46:27 GMT

i am not trying to bait right-wingers. i am sure many avowed archconservatives want to be "by the book" and do not agree with rash and unreasoned behavior that the Nazis often favored. many Prussian senior officers who served for the wehrmatch were angered that the Nazis often relied on emotion and gusto and disregarded laws of war.

all I'm saying that the Nazis had a clear pattern for adoration of primitive barbarism, emotion, anti-intellectualism. there are many passages were Hitler endorses impulsiveness, derides eggheads and praises caprice. don't think, act - was the slogan

Re: nazism and barbarism

krazy kaju — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 21:31:25 GMT

Caley McKibbin:
In every school that I ever attended every morning was veritably a religious ceremony of national anthem singing. If you were late for class you better not be caught walking outside let alone opening the door during the playing of the music over the PA system, lest you receive a tongue lashing for not being proud enough to be "Canadian" and disrespecting King and State.

Much the same here in the states. Pledging alleigence to the flag every morning was of paramount importance in elementary and middle school. I remember in 5th grade we had this program where all of the 4th and 5th grade classes got together and we'd do various "patriotic" things, including singing some country song about how great America is and how proud we are. A few kids in the beginning refused to participate, including myself, and we received a tongue lashing. So most of us (including myself) participated because we didn't know any better, and two kids continued to refuse to participate, and they got in trouble. And it's not like this occurred in the deep south or anything. This was in a suburb of Detroit. Not a very patriotic place, compared to other areas of the country.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Albert — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:45:27 GMT

I'm not sure I understand why you wrote this.

Are you trying to make the blanket statement that what you call "Right Wingers" all fit the same mode and all agree on bad philosophy that inevitably leads to barbarism?

Or are you saying that one would expect "culture" to prevent barbarism? -no such correlation.

Are you saying you're a "Left Winger" and they are exempt from stupidity?

Few questions:

How do you define right wingers? (libertarians cannot be squeezed into a box described as either strictly right or strictly left)
Where is your evidence for claiming all these beliefs held by right wingers, other than what you read in the biased media? (As mentioned Hitler was a socialist left winger)
In my opinion whackos, cruel people, barbarians and stupid sheeple are found in all strata; left right, center. Cultured, uncultured, educated, uneducated, black, white, pink, yellow or green. Tall, short, capitalist, Fascist, communist, religious, atheist...

In my opinion a more common denominator for extremist behavior is that a group that in their own minds feel that they are "morally in the right" in their beliefs, slowly but surely morph into greater and greater coercion on others, to force them into this "correct thinking".

Another fairly common thing done by groups that believe themselves to be more moral and more ethical, is to group "other thinking" citizens into large catchall families that you can deride.

When you cast such blanket aspersions on a group you are discriminating (which is within your rights),

but the so called left would be the first to shout the loudest at what they deem discrimination against you name it: minorities, women, gays, Muslims, unemployed, poor etc. etc. while they gladly yell discriminatory accusations at their non favorite groups: Right wingers, Republicans, Tea Partiers, Alaskans, Christians, Southerners etc. etc.

I would hope that amongst Libertarians you will find that the enemy is not a person who believes differently than you, but that everyone is allowed to live his own life and make his own decisions. The enemy is anyone that tries to enforce his ideas on others.

Re: nazism and barbarism

thelion — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:06:37 GMT

Same thing in Japan prior WWII.

In the late 19th century, after two decades since Japan began to industrialize, a new education law, the Imperial Rescript, was passed, stressing military training starting in the equivilent of middle school. It also proscribed a very restricted number of things to be taught and reinforced, mostly centering around social unity, military service, and respect of official government hierarchy.

Re: nazism and barbarism

EmperorNero — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 09:54:02 GMT

Caley McKibbin:
State school systems are intended to foster a sense of national identity

I think that's part of it, but more importantly Prussian-style schooling conditioned obedience. It is this unthinking obedience of authority in the population that the Nazis readily exploited for their purposes.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Caley McKibbin — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 09:20:46 GMT

How did the Prussian school system lead to Nazism?

State school systems are intended to foster a sense of national identity and most (or all) systems are fundamentally based on the Prussian system. I don't know what kind of schools you went to. In every school that I ever attended every morning was veritably a religious ceremony of national anthem singing. If you were late for class you better not be caught walking outside let alone opening the door during the playing of the music over the PA system, lest you receive a tongue lashing for not being proud enough to be "Canadian" and disrespecting King and State.

A few years ago Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty parroted on television what was said at the time of the creation of the provincial schools in Canada about the main purpose of the system: to create a national identity.

Re: nazism and barbarism

EmperorNero — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:26:33 GMT

Caley McKibbin:
Nationalism sprung out of the Prussian school system more than anything else.

How did the Prussian school system lead to Nazism? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wondered how specifically Prussianism influenced Nazism.

Re: nazism and barbarism

Caley McKibbin — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 06:50:58 GMT

Nationalism sprung out of the Prussian school system more than anything else. What I'm saying is that it caught on like wild fire and spread everywhere else in full tide very early. The Nazi's were apparently occult. Every region has its own flavour. It all revolves around clique formation. This is necessary to make people want to jump in front of bullets and shoot "foreigners" without hesitation or remorse and otherwise exploit "foreigners".