Political Theory

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Merlin — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:33:03 GMT

Eugene:

So what would you do with the problem I described?

Depends. Who discovered the well? One guy, or was it clearly visible for all? Formerly, he comes to own the well, otherwise it becomes jointly owned (note, not publicly as every owner can sell or otherwise divest himself of his part whenever he wishes to).

But even prior to this, there would be the question of the well being an economic good. Is there enough water for all? Than it cannot be owned by anyone, and when (and if) water becomes scarce, the well will become jointly owned. This last scenario is what I believe would materialize in practice. There’s no way 50 people can make of a large body of water an economic good.

Even if one guy comes to own it, note that as long as water is an ‘ownable’ good found in such low quantity, than the monopolistic price charged by the owner would benefit the community in helping to conserve water. So, in this case, breaching the NAP to take the well from the owner would be counter-productive in the long run, as 99,99% of NAP breaches would be.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Eugene — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:09:13 GMT

So what would you do with the problem I described?

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Merlin — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:00:41 GMT

Eugene:

Another problem is the water source. If there is only a single water source, I don't see how it can be privately owned. That would create a natural monopoly. If for some obscure reason the owner of the water source will decide not to sell water at all, or only sell it for ridiculous prices, all the inhabitants but him will die of thurst. So NAP will have to be violated.

It cannot be ruled out that the NAP might have to be breached at times (though not in the case you mentioned). It’s not some sort of god-given command, rather a rational idea which could or could not hold under all circumstances (or even worse, could or could not become accepted arbitration practice in a free legal market). No need to be terrified by such situations.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Eugene — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:53:52 GMT

Another problem is the water source. If there is only a single water source, I don't see how it can be privately owned. That would create a natural monopoly. If for some obscure reason the owner of the water source will decide not to sell water at all, or only sell it for ridiculous prices, all the inhabitants but him will die of thurst. So NAP will have to be violated.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Merlin — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:42:10 GMT

If fighting the emergence of the state will cost les that paying taxes, than no government will emerge and, as already mentioned here, norms will emerge in time. Otherwise, some government will emerge but I doubt it will have the clout to distribute property. Homesteading is the only realistic solution.

All in all this would be a great experiment, if only we could carry it out with several groups of 150 (Dunbar’s number) or even 500 (minimum genetic diversity threshold) at the same time.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

liberty student — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:59:31 GMT

You don't need a government to resolve conflicts. You just need an agreement upon what constitutes property and homesteading, and that can be negotiated without having to create a bureaucracy or use force. It depends upon the civility and intelligence of the parties involved.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

liberty student — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:55:40 GMT

Student:
i always love those "minarchists are not true libertarians!!!" comments.

I personally love making them.

Student:
personally, i think anyone that does not use the internet handle "student" is not a libertarian. but then again, i like re-defining commonly used words to match my own personal biases so that they become essentially useless for communication.

Good thing you're not afflicted by personal biases in your definitions!

You're welcome to define libertarian for us any time.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Drew — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:43:21 GMT

Student:
i always love those "minarchists are not true libertarians!!!" comments.

If your post is directed at me, then, you got it all wrong. I was in now way, saying nor thinking that, lol. Although, I understand your point of view.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Student — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:31:16 GMT

i always love those "minarchists are not true libertarians!!!" comments.

personally, i think anyone that does not use the internet handle "student" is not a libertarian. but then again, i like re-defining commonly used words to match my own personal biases so that they become essentially useless for communication.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Drew — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:25:40 GMT

Libertarians don't create governments.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Student — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:17:52 GMT

norms would "eventually" emerge.

well, unless the strongest individuals banded together and decided they were going to take what they wanted from the weaker individuals. but that would never happen i'm sure. i mean, the weaker people would just join forces against the stronger meanies, right? i know that's how it worked on the school yard at school. the nerds didn't just cowar while their friends were attacked in hopes of sparing themselves. :P

anyways, back to the norms stuff, a good chunk of peter leeson's research program has been about describing the different ways norms emerge to create non-violent social orders. so if you're asking this question you would prob be interested in his work. of course, leeson never directly addresses the question of whether the norms that emerge would be preferable to other means of social organization.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Eric080 — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:15:33 GMT

With regards to property, we are at the mercy of ourselves. Having a perceived right to property doesn't assure that you will in fact use that property. I agree with Shaffer.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

Anarcho-libertarian — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:04:03 GMT

My Dad posed the same question to me. After some searching I came upon this review of Butler Shaffer's book Boundaries of Order:

"Although Shaffer embraces the idea that the first to claim and use an un-owned resource thereby becomes its legitimate owner, he also recognizes that without the support of one's neighbors, one's claim to ownership will never be respected. As Rose Wilder Lane explained in The Discovery of Freedom (pp. 109--110 in the 1943 edition), the protection of our property ultimately depends upon human decency:

The only safeguards of property seem to have been possession of the property, individual honesty, and public opinion.

... [C]abins were never locked on the American frontier where there was no law. The real protection of life and property, always and everywhere, is the general recognition of the brotherhood of man. How much of the time is any American within sight of a policeman? Our lives and our property are protected by the way nearly everyone feels about another person's life and property."

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

AJ — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 23:54:52 GMT

Norms would emerge. Not in 10 seconds, but over time. Maybe by the end of the first day, or the first week, and more over time to deal with less common situations that eventually would arise. Whether the norms are permissive a government depends on the nature and attitudes of the people there. (See the post in my sig.) If they were all libertarians, hopefully no central authority would emerge.

Re: Organization in an uninhabited island

auctionguy10 — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 23:52:47 GMT

I would think that creating a government would most definitely create conflicts, not avoid them. Perhaps you could explain how a goverment(or a semi-government? Not sure what the difference is), would help in this situation? Or why its not "fair" if certain people decided to homestead resources while others aren't doing any work?