Political Theory

Re: Rand on Rights

Wheylous — Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:56:57 GMT

@Johannes and Anenome:

If you are truly curious and open-minded and would like to give the system a chance and learn more about how it would work, watch this whole video:

(Please visit the site to view this media)

Re: Rand on Rights

Wheylous — Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:33:25 GMT

Its laws are based on the objective moral principles of individual rights, rather than the subjectivity of the market forces.

Why does the government magically achieve objectivity but not the market? Democracy?

Re: Rand on Rights

Anarcho-libertarian — Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:12:52 GMT

I'm curious, do objectivists believe in voting in order to derive consent for this night-watchman state?

Re: Rand on Rights

MaikU — Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:10:08 GMT

wait wait wait... where is the difference exactly?

Re: Rand on Rights

Johannes — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:41:21 GMT

Its laws are based on the objective moral principles of individual rights, rather than the subjectivity of the market forces.

Re: Rand on Rights

Wheylous — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:19:58 GMT

What gives your night watchman state more legitimacy than my private night watchman institution?

Re: Rand on Rights

Johannes — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:14:57 GMT

The competition you're talking about is already allowed and exists, you can contract with another part to go to a private court if you want, these things goes on all the time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration As long as you don't infringe on other people's rights, a night watchman state won't interfere with your business. The only competition that would be forbidden is the competition in definitive enactment (law).

Re: Rand on Rights

Wheylous — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:35:00 GMT

What does it mean to even compete with the night watchman state from the very beginning?

Is that supposed to debunk all of AnCap?

Let's break it down:

What does it mean to even compete

Provide the same service

The government enforce laws protecting individual rights, what would the competitive advantage of a private court be,

What would the advantage of any private institution to a government one be?

what would the competitive advantage of a private court be

More efficient law enforcement. Not arresting people at your whim. Having a choice so that if the government is corrupt/inefficient you can switch company. Don't simply try to perplex your opponents with "difficult" questions. Try to place yourself within the system and envision solutions. That's why statists despise liberty. They don't want to try to make it work. Letting yourself free from the mindset of the state opens up your mind to how a voluntary society would actually work.

To compete with the night watchman state in practice means that you aim to not follow the laws which are protecting individual rights.

I can do it too, watch: "To compete with doctors in practice means that you aim to not heal sick people."

Competition doesn't mean you want a different overall result. Microsoft's competitor, Apple, still wants to sell their computers. It's not like Apple wants no computers sold. They just say that their computers are better, faster, and look nicer.

Competition in the courts could likely lead to new technologies for the analysis of evidence. If a court wants to be used, it will try its best to come up with new technology that helps investigations. This technology will be certified by licensing companies to show that it indeed works and is not phony.

Re: Rand on Rights

Johannes — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:04:41 GMT

Wheylous: "Is a monopoly in court better than competing courts? If yes, how do you enforce this monopoly?"

What does it mean to even compete with the night watchman state from the very beginning? The government enforce laws protecting individual rights, what would the competitive advantage of a private court be, towards the state, if not the violation individual rights? To compete with the night watchman state in practice means that you aim to not follow the laws which are protecting individual rights.

Re: Rand on Rights

Wheylous — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:35:37 GMT

http://mises.org/daily/1874/Possibility-of-private-law

Also, http://mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf

I think the punishment of being excluded from society is dire enough to prevent people from avoiding court. Note that in the current system, it wouldn't happen or it would be "discrimination." In fact, many free market restraints do not exist today. For example, I see a court case coming up if Bernanke is denied food at a grocery store. Yet in a free society, people would be free to punish the counterfeiters :P

How to compel a murderer to come to court? Simple. Private property. If he is on my property, I may have him arrested. If he is on a private road and is a criminal (having signed a contract that if there is criminal activity he must be involved in a court case before he may use the roads) and fails to show up to court, he may be arrested. Ultimately, a web of contracts in society create a system where anyone who is accused of a crime must be cleared by a court (either being convicted or acquitted) before using any service.

Bam. Free market wins.

Re: Rand on Rights

Anenome — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 06:31:43 GMT

Wheylous:

Alrighty then.

Is a monopoly in court better than competing courts? If yes, how do you enforce this monopoly?

The idea that a government must necessarily be financed by taxation is not set in stone. Rand herself advocated a "pay for use" model of government where, for instance, judges would be paid by those seeking government oversight of contracts.

You mean like a private court?

Welcome to anarchy.

Assuming that we have a government which is limited to responsive coercion, and has a monopoly on coercion within society, as all law must have by nature, then let's discuss the court system of such a society.

Since we're trying to maximize freedom, no one would be prevented from dealing with conflict via private courts.

However, since the law has a monopoly on the use of force in society, able to use coercion only to rectify aggressions, those conflicts where a party to the conflict will not willingly come to the court (thus the private courts would be useless, as they cannot compel attendance), the government court must be involved to compel attendance, as well as for any solution where a coercion is necessary to achieve justice (such as recovering stolen money in a bank account, etc.)

A private court does not necessitate anarchy--we have them even now. Neither does have a gov-court prohibit private courts.

Of course, in anarchy you could only have voluntary courts, and compelling a party to come to the table would be impossible without taking up force of arms. Suddenly, guns.

Once again, anarchy leads to rule by the strong man. You must be stronger than another in anarchy to compel them to respect you. This is not a civilized way to live, but rather a return to tribalism. And tribalism is exactly what would result.

Re: Rand on Rights

Wheylous — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 03:42:17 GMT

Alrighty then.

Is a monopoly in court better than competing courts? If yes, how do you enforce this monopoly?

The idea that a government must necessarily be financed by taxation is not set in stone. Rand herself advocated a "pay for use" model of government where, for instance, judges would be paid by those seeking government oversight of contracts.

You mean like a private court?

Welcome to anarchy.

Re: Rand on Rights

Anenome — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:21:46 GMT

Wheylous:
Anemone, I personally currently agree with you that rights descend from the nature of man (probably because I am ignorant on these matters and have not read enough). Yet see here:

Sure, sure, let's meditate on the subject :)

Wheylous:
How do we define government? A monopoly on the initiation of aggression.

No, that would be a terrible government! In fact, that's what every oligarchy possesses. I say terrible because you use the phrase "monopoly on aggression," meaning you'd allow the government to aggress (aggression meaning initiation of coercion). But there's two kinds of coercion, the initiation of coercion and coercion used in response to an initiation to -stop- that initiation. While the former is unethical and bad, the latter is ethical and good. We need a government strictly limited to responsive coercion used to protect rights, and legally incapable of initiating aggression.

What government has is a monopoly on the use of force in society, but how it uses that forces is all-important. It must use it only to defend rights, and to resolve disputes among members of society. All other human relations within society must have force banished from them. This creates a civil society.

Wheylous:
Furthermore, government must almost necessarily also be characterized by taxes. Hence, government is a power to establish and collect taxes and use force on people.

I disagree. The idea that a government must necessarily be financed by taxation is not set in stone. Rand herself advocated a "pay for use" model of government where, for instance, judges would be paid by those seeking government oversight of contracts. Thus, rather than everyone having access to legal courts on a free basis, you'd pay to have your contract enforced by the law courts, before the fact, almost like insurance. This has the secondary benefit of encouraging a market for justice, meaning one could easily switch loyalty to a private court should one prefer it, binding arbitration and the like. Though any remedy requiring the use of coercion would likely need to involve a government court (things like wage garnishment and the like, or compelling somone to appear).

Wheylous:

What is collection of taxes? Taking of people's property. Since we agree that property rights exist, we see that taxes are a clear violation of property, of rights, and hence, of human nature. Furthermore, taxation involves even more aggression, this time personal, if a person refuses to let others take his property. He will be handcuffed at the point of a gun and imprisoned. In fact, for a long time (13 years).

So to protect our rights you argue that we must violate them. And not simply randomly, but in an institutionalized and systematic manner. We legislate that we are allowed to violate rights. Violation of rights becomes our morality.

We come to believe it is just to take people's lawful property from them and to kidnap them to put them into prison. This is the government option.

But what is the alternative?

The alternative is a voluntary system where people create the institutions that protect their rights. This does not institutionalize violence. In fact, it takes advantage of the free market's innovation and motivation (that governments do not have).

Simply because a society is free does not mean that it is stupid. Free people appreciate protection too, you know. There would still be police.

I cannot respond, because you've assumed a position that I do not take. I do not assume taxation at the point of a gun as a matter of course for a state :P I agree with everythng you've said about such a system, but taxation is not an essential feature of the state, eg: the articles of confederation contained no wage tax. For that matter, we didn't get one under the Constitution until approximately the Civil War and then WWII when it went mainstream :P

I seek a minimal state allowing voluntary everything, until someone comes around trying to aggress, and that person will be coerced to end their aggression. That is a perfect society.

Re: Rand on Rights

Anenome — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:08:12 GMT

Wesker1982:
The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State. - Murray Rothbard

This does not constitute much of an assertion. While small communities can effectively shun aggressors and self-police, large-scale communities cannot and need law and order.

If you agree with the NAP, then you agree that coercion used to stop aggression is both ethical and good. A limited government empowered only to protect rights against aggressors must by extension be a good thing.

Re: Rand on Rights

Anenome — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:58:43 GMT

Nielsio:
Ayn Rand loved copyright, which is why her works are not in creative commons, and so you cannot post more than 3 paragraphs (a safe rule I made up).Make of that what you want, but don't put Mises I in jeopardy.

Ah well. I wish you'd left the Kindle reference in place at least, so people could've looked it up. Let's see... I referenced Chapter 12, "Man's Rights," from Virtue of Selfishness, Kindle Location 1642 - 1740.